Fixing K'43...Why so pro-Axis?

[HirooOnoda]

Okay, I love K'43, but the Axis bias is pretty evident.

Check out the stats on Win/Losses. I think Welcome to the Fascists doesn't have a single Russian win.


Ideas:

1. Increase minefields to level 3. Everything I've ever read says the minefields were over-kill, and we know nothing kills like over-kill.

2. Russian infantry in Pillboxes don't check for low ammo or Isolation until 2400 hours (Once a day).

3. Increase Russian infantry one level of moral.


4. Fanatical defender rule applies.

Yes, the Russians will experience victories, it will be tough for the Germans, but you know what, let's make the game fun again.


Hiroo

[Strela]

Okay, I love K'43, but the Axis bias is pretty evident.

Check out the stats on Win/Losses. I think Welcome to the Fascists doesn't have a single Russian win.


Ideas:

1. Increase minefields to level 3. Everything I've ever read says the minefields were over-kill, and we know nothing kills like over-kill.

2. Russian infantry in Pillboxes don't check for low ammo or Isolation until 2400 hours (Once a day).

3. Increase Russian infantry one level of moral.


4. Fanatical defender rule applies.

Yes, the Russians will experience victories, it will be tough for the Germans, but you know what, let's make the game fun again.


Hiroo

Hiroo,

Did you try Volcano Man's mod? I believe he 'fixed' the pro Axis bias significantly....

David

[HirooOnoda]

Okay, I love K'43, but the Axis bias is pretty evident.

Check out the stats on Win/Losses. I think Welcome to the Fascists doesn't have a single Russian win.


Ideas:

1. Increase minefields to level 3. Everything I've ever read says the minefields were over-kill, and we know nothing kills like over-kill.

2. Russian infantry in Pillboxes don't check for low ammo or Isolation until 2400 hours (Once a day).

3. Increase Russian infantry one level of moral.


4. Fanatical defender rule applies.

Yes, the Russians will experience victories, it will be tough for the Germans, but you know what, let's make the game fun again.


Hiroo

Hiroo,

Did you try Volcano Man's mod? I believe he 'fixed' the pro Axis bias significantly....

David

VM is a great guy, but I had a problem with one of his mods (no units would show on the map) and HPS said,"Sorry, we don't do tech for outside mods."

Needless to say I had to drop from a team game I spent a lot of time getting started and prepped for.


But that is besides the point. The game is very biased against he Russians and I can't get opponents to play it due to the bias.

HPS needs to fix this, if they care that.

[Elxaime]

One other item on the bias side. Many Soviet units along the western part of the salient are fixed and the defenses are thinner there. Often a German side player will loop around and attack where he knows the Russians are fixed and in lesser numbers. The Soviet player cannot react because his units are fixed. And even once you react, the Germans have outflanked the main defenses.

The other issue with stock is the German recovery rates were much higher than the Soviets, creating a paradox that the German could easily win the battle of attrition when it was the other way around.

I could go on...the A rated Panthers, etc. Stock K43 is a German cakewalk when it shouldn't be. Maybe VM has fixed some of this, but really it is too bad when you need an outside modder to adjust play balance so out of whack...

[HirooOnoda]

One other item on the bias side. Many Soviet units along the western part of the salient are fixed and the defenses are thinner there. Often a German side player will loop around and attack where he knows the Russians are fixed and in lesser numbers. The Soviet player cannot react because his units are fixed. And even once you react, the Germans have outflanked the main defenses.

The other issue with stock is the German recovery rates were much higher than the Soviets, creating a paradox that the German could easily win the battle of attrition when it was the other way around.

I could go on...the A rated Panthers, etc. Stock K43 is a German cakewalk when it shouldn't be. Maybe VM has fixed some of this, but really it is too bad when you need an outside modder to adjust play balance so out of whack...

Agreed, but if HPS wants to say,"Get the VM mod, it's fixed" they had better change their "We don't do tech support for VM mods."

They need to be consistent here.

[Volcano Man]

VM is a great guy, but I had a problem with one of his mods (no units would show on the map) and HPS said,"Sorry, we don't do tech for outside mods."

Thanks for the compliment. ;)

If no units showed on the map the solution is simple: you have to update your particular PzC game to the latest version (assuming you installed the mod in the correct place).

Wishing/hoping HPS will "fix" a scenario on a game that is what, 10+ years old(?) and from a designer who isn't active anymore, is unfortunately wishful thinking to be honest.

---

Agreed, but if HPS wants to say,"Get the VM mod, it's fixed" they had better change their "We don't do tech support for VM mods."

They need to be consistent here.

HPS never says "get the VM mod", if Strela or I recommend it it is purely our opinion, not that of HPS or JTS.

You can of course make the ideal K43 campaign yourself as well. Of course no one wants to take matters into their own hands, but you are more likely to get results that way, don't you think? Rhetorical question: when was the last time that a K43 scenario was modified in a K43 official update?

[HirooOnoda]

VM is a great guy, but I had a problem with one of his mods (no units would show on the map) and HPS said,"Sorry, we don't do tech for outside mods."

Thanks for the compliment. ;)

If no units showed on the map the solution is simple: you have to update your particular PzC game to the latest version (assuming you installed the mod in the correct place).

Wishing/hoping HPS will "fix" a scenario on a game that is what, 10+ years old(?) and from a designer who isn't active anymore, is unfortunately wishful thinking to be honest.

---

Agreed, but if HPS wants to say,"Get the VM mod, it's fixed" they had better change their "We don't do tech support for VM mods."

They need to be consistent here.

HPS never says "get the VM mod", if Strela or I recommend it it is purely our opinion, not that of HPS or JTS.

You can of course make the ideal K43 campaign yourself as well. Of course no one wants to take matters into their own hands, but you are more likely to get results that way, don't you think? Rhetorical question: when was the last time that a K43 scenario was modified in a K43 official update?

VM..I was in touch with you at the time and you had concluded it wasn't simple. Something having to do with an incompatibility of Window's XP vs. Windows Vista. It would work for XP, but not for Vista. Believe me, I tried every "simple" alternative there was.

I didn't know that once a game designer had left HPS/JTS that the game was hence forth unsupportable by HPS.

That is very strange.

Take care.

[Volcano Man]

I don't recall anything about the issue, and I don't really understand why it would be a Vista vs. XP issue. But fine - if you say so. These mods are really quite straight forward, you update the game to the latest version, then extract a .zip file and overwrite some game files, done.

Re: HPS support, you misunderstand me, I am not saying that the game is no longer supported by HPS, I am saying that you are specifically mentioning something about the scenario design and play balance. This will not be addressed UNLESS the mission designer is active and in touch with the community AND he agrees AND he feels like changing it out of the kindness of his own heart (ie. because he plays the game himself). I think the answer to all of these is "no". You can interpret that how you want to, but it is and has always been the simple reality. The designers of these games do not get paid a lot, and life takes over and eventually they fade away after 10 years.

On the other hand if K43 crashed to desktop and did not function then I suppose they would ask JT to do something about it. This is an entirely different thing.

As I said, you can think what you want but you really have only three options:

1) Adjust the campaign yourself into what you believe it should be.
2) Play it like it is and just accept what it is (all wargames are imperfect).
3) Play someone else's mod that tried to address what they felt was lacking.

I guess I don't have much else to say on the topic.

[Elxaime]

In fairness, I suppose K43 would be very difficult to model accurately and still be fun for both sides. Although the German plan was not ambitious by past standards, it was one of the most telegraphed punches in military history. The Soviets had months to prepare. As a result, it was more like WW1 than WW2. The northern German attack was defeated relatively quickly. The southern prong kept at it for longer, but even though it succeeded in drawing in some of the Soviet armored reserves, there was never a serious open field breakthrough. And once they determined the German attacks were spent, the Soviets had enough strength sitting around to launch offensives of their own.

[HirooOnoda]

In fairness, I suppose K43 would be very difficult to model accurately and still be fun for both sides. Although the German plan was not ambitious by past standards, it was one of the most telegraphed punches in military history. The Soviets had months to prepare. As a result, it was more like WW1 than WW2. The northern German attack was defeated relatively quickly. The southern prong kept at it for longer, but even though it succeeded in drawing in some of the Soviet armored reserves, there was never a serious open field breakthrough. And once they determined the German attacks were spent, the Soviets had enough strength sitting around to launch offensives of their own.

The options I suggested would go a long way to making the game more historical. The problem is that it is unhistorical.

They have the mines at X2. They were the densest on the Eastern Front, yet they give the Germans in Minsk '44 Level 3 mines, not the Russians at Kursk. The level x2 mines should be brought up one level.

The Panthers should be moral B or C. Not A. Many of the Panthers were mobility kills on the first day of the battle-never could happen in the game. Just lower the moral and up the mines.

Make the units in Bunkers to be in-supply unless they pass a once-a-day check for ammo. Also, institute fanatical defender rule into the game.

The problem seems easily solved, more at least it moves the game to a more historical and playable game.