From the Front - Bunker Assault!

[fastphil]

I think another poll should be taken. How many people actually read the manual before they jumped in ? I didn't. How many players play Squad Battles and/or Panzer Campaigns regularly? I do both but this game is neither or rather maybe a blend of both. I have gone through this discussion and found that I would have played it a bit different if I had read the manual. In fact I am playing it differently in my current match based on what I have read here. There is a learning curve in this and severe penalties for having 'trouble with that curve'. RT%^$M loosely translated as 'read the blanking manual'. as I used to tell my younger shipmates. JMHO

[Landser34]

I agree with Phil I jumped in without fully reading the manual I just thought that having played Squad battles and PZC this would be easy to just start a game and go from there it does help to read the manual

[Bayes]

Thanks for the nice tutorial Dog Soldier! I just tried out the recipe and it worked very well :-). As a side note, I must say that I really enjoy the game so far. Although, Squad Battles and Panzer Campaigns also are my favorites, Panzer Battles somehow plays out more fluidly and feels more fast moving. Excellent design!

I have mainly been concentrating on the more mobile scenarios till now, just finishing two games of #0708_06 Gostishchevo - 2nd Guards Tank Corps Attacks. My first attempt as the Russians ended in a disaster, I tried to concentrate my forces within a too small area, causing a tremendous bottleneck when crossing Lipovyy Donets. To make matters worse, my concentrated forces were severely punished by German artillery and air, and I was unable to break free of the German defenses. By the end of the game, my enormous Russian horde was retreating back across the river, pursued by the German panzer regiment. :-)

I was really surprised in the follow up game, now controlling the Germans. My opponent orchestrated the Russians offense in phases, spanning the whole map. A scenario that I thought was a sure Major Loss for the Russians ended as a desperate struggle for the Germans at the second line of VPs. Barely managed a draw…

Now looking forward to trying #0706_06 Ozerovskii - Hurrah!! Counterattack Comrades!!

Bayes

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

The bunkers are hard to break, but not too hard. I didn't read the manual either, still haven't and probably won't. I play blind or off of memory and by the seat of my pants. I have tried different things, some worked, some didn't. But when it comes to bunkers, the two common denominators is direct fire weapons and infantry assault.

Direct fire with armor, at guns, aa guns, inf guns works decently to help reduce the bunkers. it will not always happen in one turn, but not all bunkers in real life fell in one shot either.

Disruption - Not all units in bunkers in real life disrupted easily either. Most bunkers I have read about, sometimes it took direct fire weapons, isolation, bazookas, flame throwers, grenades and satchel charges among other things. Artillery is useless on stoutly built bunkers except for maybe the biggest guns like 8in howitzers. Even 155s had a tough time except with direct hits. Many is the time some SP arty was brought forward for direct fire. I am also finding air strikes to be useless. So maybe I will start saving those for any units I find outside a bunker. Arty is better suited for the same and for smoke. I don't always practice what I preach about these comments. Maybe I would win more if I did. My joy is in being able to play no matter a balanced scenario or not. Just doesn't matter to me.

With inf assaults, leaving an escape route isn't always necessary if you think you have all the units spotted and in your opinion whittled down enough, one assault to eliminate them is all that is needed. But remember with fog of war, it is still a crap shoot, even with single digit units. You may have come across a Russian Rambo. It is not always necessary to clear with eng first either. I have had some success with assaulting from a minefield or obstacle and taking the bunker and then clearing them when an eng arrives. Even though I know what works, I may not do it as I want to try other things as well. Might find another way that works better depending on terrain or something else. One never really knows until you try something.

I think the game works like it is. Still, other than my own mind, the only problem I have had is the hidden units. I think that needs tweaking, maybe by quality, that lesser quality units just don't have the experience for fire discipline that higher quality units do and at times they also lose it. In a game now, I have just found a unit in a village I have already passed through by around 10-12 hexes for a few turns now. If it is not at least A or B quality. Maybe fire discipline will change and go by quality. I'm sure there are times a better quality loses it and a lesser quality maintains it. Maybe install a percentage system or something.

The only other thing that I could see be somewhat changed would be for air to be like squad battles so that you could choose what ords for the planes to bring. It may or may not be the right call on the ords, but that would be for follow on air to correct.

The other thing I mentioned before is Kursk would not have been my first choice. I am more of a West Front/Med fan than East Front. I am hoping the next one will be in west/med and little to no bunkers. If the titles are spread around, it will only take a couple of titles to have a little taste of everything. We have bunkers, west/med could introduce more maneuver space and maybe beach invasions and airborne. Eventually, a Pacific title would be more bunkers and beach assault and then adds jungle. Then you pretty much have everything that CS offers in a different system. Even though Kursk wouldn't have been my first choice, I am thoroughly enjoying the title.

In the end, all that matters is a good working title and keep them different and spread out over ww2. I hope the early war does not get overlooked. Post ww2 to present as well.

[Richie61]

I have played a few SB games, but no PzC. Like Mark (OJW) I too didn't read the manual either, still haven't and probably won't. I read sections on what I think I need to do or think I need to learn. Plus I am a PITA and ask Dennis

I agree too about how to bust bunkers.
a) direct fire weapons
b)infantry assault
c) luck

I still like SB more, but PB is slowly growing on me. I think that winning or losing has a lot to do with how well the scenario design built the scenario. I also know that it's not a "red vs blue" game and sometimes the
Germans are better equipped or trained and if commanded correctly they will win. Then there are scenarios
where I feel the time needs to be extended or victory points adjusted. David and team have been VERY open to comments and seems to listen to both pros & cons. David has been more than willing to listen &
offers up why the system does this or that or he will add it to his list of items to review. I feel that making
a scenario that is balanced for AI & H2H play is a hard thing to do!

I am not a great PB player, but I enjoy learning to new title and look forward to the next PB title.

[kolc]

I am doubly guilty for not reading the manual because while I play SB I don't play PzC. And, as others have pointed out, I am finding that my knowledge of SB doesn't help with PB. But then, I haven't read the manual front to back for any game I have. I use them as a reference if I have a question or not sure how to do something. I do find the bunkers challenging but I will try the approach outlined here to see if that changes my pov. All in all I like the game, but my opinion is somewhat tempered by that fact that the battle is Kursk (never had much interest). I am very much interested in seeing how the game system handles a battle that is less bunker-intensive. (maybe some sand)

[enigma6584]

I read the manual but putting practice in play is what really does the teaching here. You can read and read, think about it long but frankly for me playing the game against those who know it well is what teaches me the best.

I just finished a game with Dog Soldier where I was the Russians and he was the Germans assaulting my fortified line of bunkers. He maneuvered, I counter-maneuvered constantly moving disrupted troops out of the bunkers and replacing them with fresh troops. The battle went right to the wire where he at the last turn managed to take the bunker with the most victory points. I watched as this guy (Dog Soldier) maneuvered his forces around my stacked defenses and went right for the prize while ignoring those victory points which weren't going to get him that victory. In hindsight, I should have abandoned several bunkers in order to create another defensive line around the main victory point location, thus creating another tripwire which in turn might have delayed his attack and ensuring me a victory. Instead, as mentioned, I sat my forces in their bunkers trying to hold positions which he really wasn't interesting in going after, even after my forces were released from "fixed" positions with plenty of time to maneuver.

My defense against Dog Soldier was working but came apart because he maneuvered his forces much more efficiently than myself and already he had his eyes on the main prize while I was trying to defend everything as opposed to understanding what his real focus was. I found that out too late and didn't have enough troops positioned to blunt that last attack and lost this game.

I think this game does a pretty good job of "simulating" the grind of war in its 2D format. It has everything in it like assaulting fixed, fortified positions, maneuvering, terrain implications. I like the feel of fluidity in it, the constant need to be able to maneuver, hold, move again, hold etc., the need to think 3-4 turns ahead and be ready to change those plans due to what is just happened on the battlefield the last turn. There is so much it offers in terms of experiences with these battle scenarios. You can play a scenario one time and have a completely different experience on another try.

My only want with this particular game is more alternative scenarios to broaden my experience in "what could I have done differently?"

[Dog Soldier]

enigma6584 put up a very tough defense in #0707_02 Batratskaia Dacha - The House on the Hill. This scenario did come down to the last turn. As he mentioned he was changing the look of his defense each turn trying to counter my last move. I had to switch my approach three different time to adjust to the new defensive posture.

It was a great game that easily could have ended as a German defeat instead of a victory.

Thank you enigma6584 for an excellent game.

Dog Soldier

[Richie61]

Any chance of getting the PB manual as an audiobook for my kindle

[fastphil]

Any chance of getting the PB manual as an audiobook for my kindle

motion seconded