Surrendering

[wiggum]

Hi !

As i understand it, surrendering only happens when a unit is completely surrounded by enemy units.
That means that situations like that happen:


A demoralized unit which was already overran by enemys and is fired upon (black arrows) moves towards other enemy units (red arrow) without surendering and while still shooting.

I think such units should surrender or just disappear (routing, leaving the battlefield).
Is it possible to force such a behavior via a modification of the game rules ?

Is there any value you can change with the param editor ?

[TheBigRedOne]

As written in the manual:

After assault losses are computed and applied, a determination is made of whether the defending forces retreat. If the combat calculation results in no defender losses, they do not retreat (Note that the actual losses may differ from the combat calculation because of random variation in how the losses applied). Defending forces that have a non-Wrecked Vehicle with them do not retreat. Otherwise, two random Die Rolls are made. If the first Die Roll is less than or equal to the morale value of the defending units or the second Die Rolls greater than the morale value of the attacking units, then the retreat does not occur. Retreating defenders automatically become Demoralized. Crew-served weapons are only retreated if they have sufficient crew to carry them, otherwise they are left in the defending hex.

Demoralized defending units that have no valid way to retreat are eliminated and considered to have surrendered. This does not apply to Japanese units however.

This is still resolved upon assaulting the unit, not just firing upon them. In SB a unit will not simply 'surrender' and leave the screen unless it is assaulted, to my knowledge.

[wiggum]

Oh, yes i made a error.
I mean the black arrows are assaulting units.

So the red unit (in my example) gets assaulted and then retreats. But it retreats in the direction of other enemy units and there are no other friendly units near.
In such a case (considering the small scale 40m = 1 hex) i think such units should disappear and counted as having surrendered (in the After Action Report). Having such demoralized units fighting to death on their own is a bit unrealistic.

[TheBigRedOne]

As the rule said, though, they are assaulted and, with no place to retreat to, surrender, so they aren't really 'fighting to the death'.

The losses you see in the Victory screen are a combination of KIA, WIA and surrenders. They are all equivalent in terms of victory points.

Under most circumstances, a Demoralized unit will get eliminated if assaulted by a much stronger force. Every so often you get that squad that doesn't want to give up, but that's also true in war as well. In general, I think the game models this scenario in an acceptable manner.

[wiggum]

But there is also a "Captured" section in the Victory screen, i thought that this was for surrendering units ?
I never seen it happen that a unit surrendered, like the manual says, you would have to completely surround the enemy and then assault him.
Considering that surrendering on the battlefield mostly happens when whole formations decide to do so (like german units who fought the allies till they had no ammunition left and then surrendered altogether) it would be better to have such units disappear.

[TheBigRedOne]

But there is also a "Captured" section in the Victory screen, i thought that this was for surrendering units ?

[wiggum]

Ahh, ok...now it makes sense...
Sorry but im one of those NRTFM guys (Never Reading the Fu**#*# manual)...

[kolc]

Civilians can be casualties too...I believe...which counts against victory points at the end???

[Jeff Conner]

I believe that is correct from what I remember. You can also set up a hex as a collateral damage objective and if the wrong side fires at this hex, the opposing side is awarded victory points. I played with this in Falklands, but the number of victory points awarded appeared to be somewhat random and I couldn't balance the scenario. Falklands has a scenario (hypothetical) where British Special Forces are trying to rescue a group of Kelpers held in Goose Green. You might want to try it if you want more information on how civilians are treated. There may be some other scenarios that have them too, but I can't think of one off the top of my head.