320mm rocket carrying pioneers

[BigDuke66]

Some explanation:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43595

Still what is described here seems to show a capability that is well beyond what these were used for, some form a short range UMPF to knock out certain strongholds of any kind.
Some first hand accounts would be interesting as I can't imagine that these were accurate enough to be useful beyond 200 meters maybe and surely limited to special situations were anything else failed.


I think at this point some form of limitation should kick in.
I had already the idea to limit certain components within a force because with enough points you can buy the most silly combination of troops that surely never ever acted together on any battlefield in this combination.
https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards...?tid=66355
But the problem is alway the situation, because for one situation 80% tanks seems ok while for an other situation it would seem totally unrealistic.


Anyhow maybe it is at least time to start a thread that collects these "special" units that simply need some form of limitation or else they form grotesque situations.
In this case you could say only one such unit per company, also the unit can't use it as suppression weapon firing blindly into th terrain but has to go close(4 hex) and use it on static structures like strong points, houses etc. only.

[Walrus]

I just add it into the pre-game negotiation.
It's a banned unit IMO. Totally unrealistic.
There are plenty of other Pioneer and Engineer units that can be used instead.
They can all deal with mines and obstacles, and will have all sorts of flame throwers (the non-rocket kind) and satchel charges etc. and will do the required job just fine.

At this point all I want SPCAMO to do is fix the bloody Op-fire filter.
Screwing that up ion the last patch and then refusing to fix it straight away is bad form IMO.
That's a crucial tool for playing PBEM and against the AI too I would imagine.

I do my best to back those guys up, always have since before i used to game test for them back in the day...just ask Weasel! But it's getting harder and harder these days.
I have also given up trying to deal with them direct. All I get is angry old man responses "Get off my lawn!", It's a bit sad as I have championed this game for near 20 years and it's a great game, mostly it gets better and better.
I appreciate all the work Andy and Don have done, and all the other testers too, but sometimes it feels like the PBEM guys have become the enemy.
IMHO PBEM should be the pinnacle of this games achievements.
Playing against the AI is just practice for PBEM as far as I see it.
Yet we seem to be treated as 2nd class citizens. It's quite sad.

[Weasel]

I am going to do some research, fix the two errors and post the oob here for DL.

[BigDuke66]

I think the guys are just burned out, they already wanted to take a break after the last patch what they fortunately didn't do.
At least they are not that type of person who takes over a job and than lets everyone down because you don't take that position serious, the long time support speaks for them and is a fine example for many others.


This case is simply complicated because the engine is limited in what it can simulate, I wouldn't mind such a unit as what the rockets can achieve may likely only be achievable in a different way by some tank or assault gun, and you surely can argue about how it should be integrated into the game.

[BigDuke66]

Aren't there plenty of pioneer units in the OOB that use already some form of demolition charge?

Here some pictures that show how these rockets were fired from the ground:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...insatz.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...insatz.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...insatz.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...insatz.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...insatz.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...insatz.jpg

I can imaging how single rockets were fired in a hurry by Pioneers directly from the "Packkiste" the box with which it was delivered, it's said that this has happened several times in Stalingrad at ranges from 120 to 300 meters to stop Russian advances.

Another source mentions the these rockets were later given to the Infanterie and Pionier units because it took too long to make all the launchers(either the "schwere Wurfgerät 40" made out of wood or the "schwere Wurfgerät 41" made out of steel) of a unit ready for fire and so they were unsuitable for assaults.
The 15 cm Nebelwerfer 41 was much better suited for this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_Nebelwerfer_41

[Weasel]

Yes, but they were moved by trucks or PzI, not guys running around the battlefield with them. See the very first post in this thread quoted from a German soldier who actually used them. And they definetley were not used from inside a house and stuff as house clearing/room clearing weapons.

[Weasel]

Aren't there plenty of pioneer units in the OOB that use already some form of demolition charge?

I went through the German OOB, this is how many have demolition charges = 0. I did find that they carried numerous different charges for demolitions and such, but not one sight stated they carried 200lb rockets. They also carried two types of flame throwers, a regular type 41 and another that only gave a 10 second burst, but I don't see it in the OOB.

[BigDuke66]

In an "orderly" firing position and used as artillery they surely were transported by some kind of vehicle, but I doubt that they were even able to move them inside Stalingrad by any vehicle at all, while a single rocket with the crate is surely heavy it is not unmovable by infantry.

And of course they were not use inside a house but to fire on some kind of enemy position, bunker, house, strong point etc. or as said to stop some Russian assaults/advances.

Anyhow while I like to have even such misfit units in the OOB, if more common devices like the Molotov Cocktail or others are not in use by the Pioniers I would prefer to see these things covered first instead of this misfit equipment.
The Rohrladung was just there to remove obstacle, in game the engineers already do that without the need for any equipment so that hasn't to be added as weapon.
BTW is there any difference between a satchel and a demolition charge?

[Weasel]

Ok, I did find this in an Allied intelligence brief:

Although the tubes are mounted on a two-wheeled carriage with a split trail, the whole apparatus is so light that two men can manhandle it easily.

So that would lead to them being able to move around on foot, but they are still fired as artillery. So if I were to allow them I would restrict them to firing as artillery and not used for house clearing room to room which is what everyone uses them for. Thus a minimum range would be required, I would say at least 2 hexes.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/rocket/index.html

---

I would say the satchel charge is designed for use in combat to clear obstacles, bunkers, etc in hurry and under fire, while the demolition charge is more for clearing obstacles not in combat. Kind of weak, but from what I read that is basically it. But in game terms, no difference.

[Weasel]

Found the mimmum ranges for the two rockets in question:

Page 31 of the book consists of range table extracts for the 28cm and 32cm rockets. According to them, the minimum range is 300m for the 28 cm rocket and 400m for the 32cm rocket. Normal loadout for the Schweres Wurfrahmen 40 was 5 28cm HE rockets and 1 32cm incendiary, but the vehicle could accommodate any mix of the two rocket sizes. Page 38 lists the minimum fighting range for the 30cm rocket as 400 meters. Page 40 indicates that the trailer launch rack for the 30cm was equipped not only with the normal artillery dial sight, but also iron sights graduated from 100-1000 meters.


Ahh, even better find:

Field Rocket Equipment of the German Army 1939 - 1945 by TJ Gander and Deutsche Raketen-Werfer, Podzun-Pallus-Verlag.

28cm min 300m max 1925 m
30cm min 400m max 4450 m
32cm min 400m max 2200 m