CMx2 tactical notes and observations

[PoorOldSpike]

Squads on Hide will still take peeks
This explains why squads lying prone on 'Hide' in buildings, behind walls or in shrubbery etc can still spot the enemy.
This Russian squad is on Hide in thick woods, and if we monitor the status of individual men on the readout at bottom left, we see that the status of some of them keeps randomly changing from 'Hiding' to 'Spotting' every few seconds as they keep abstractedly raising their head to take a peek to keep tabs on the enemy's whereabouts.
It also explains why the enemy can spot squads who are Hiding, as they keep seeing heads randomly popping up-

[PoorOldSpike]

MORE RED THUNDER SPOTTING TESTS

1- I placed this Russian 76mm ATG and a 12-man infantry squad behind this standard Hedge on short arcs and Hide, and placed 3 stationary buttoned PzIVH's and an observers halftrack about 280m away-



2- The ATG has LOS to all German units, but as this is primarily a spotting test I keep him on a short arc to prevent him firing-



3-The Germans have a clear LOS to the hedge but haven't spotted the gun or infantry yet and have no idea they're there-

[PoorOldSpike]

4- But after a couple of turns they spot the ATG because although its crew are prone on Hide, the gun itself is too big to be hidden, even though it hasn't fired. Notice the halftrack scooting away because the AI driver wisely doesn't want to mess with an ATG-



5- The Germans have got clear LOS to the ATG but I'm holding their fire with short arcs.
Note the infantry haven't been spot because they're lying prone on Hide behind the Hedge-



6- I spice things up by un-Hiding the infantry,unbuttoning the panzers and ordering the Observer team to dismount from the halftrack and run back to the panzers to help with the spotting.
Note the un-hidden infantry are now kneeling and looking over the hedge-

[PoorOldSpike]

7- and bingo, the Germans spot the infantry behind the hedge. The target line confirms that the tanks could fire now, but I've been holding them on arcs because this is a spotting test not a combat test-



8- IT'S SHOWTIME! I remove the panzers arcs and all hell lets loose as they immediately blow away the ATG-



9- and then turn their attention to the infantry, wiping them out after a few turns of firing.
Note the holes that have been blasted in the hedge.
(Incidentally throughout the whole test I never issued any targetting orders, I simply let the panzers pick their own targets and fire at will)-


Conclusions
a- ATG's are too big to hide behind a standard hedge; the best they can hope for is that the partial cover will buy them just enough time to be the first to open fire before they're spotted.
b- Infantry on Hide behind a hedge are very difficult to spot, at least at longish ranges.

[PoorOldSpike]

GRASS and WEEDS can block LOS
These interesting observations were noticed during my earlier ATG tests.
The Russian 76mm ATG has a clear LOS to the PzIVH, the map is pancake flat so it's what you'd expect-



but surprisingly as we move the target line around, we see he doesn't have LOS to the actual ground itself near the panzer!



Another view- clear LOS to the tank-



But if we shift the target line to the ground near the tank, LOS is blocked!-



This shows why, the LOS line is okay up to here-



but is then blocked by that clump of weeds (circled) if we try to extend it further-


The moral is- Tanks/trucks/Guns etc stick up above ground level and can be seen and shot at, but if we try to target a spot on the ground near them for area-fire, LOS to the spot may be obscured by clumps of grass and weeds.

[Steiner14]

True, "Reverse slope - no aim point" is the perfect indicator that a tank can be spotted without having LOS to the ground.

[PoorOldSpike]

INFANTRY IN HEAVY FOREST
(I posted this Red Thunder test in the wrong thread earlier, so here it is in the right thread)
I create heavy forest with 'Foliage Tree 'E', and 'Ground 2 Heavy Forest', and the Germans had to get within about 50 metres before they spotted the Russians and began firing. (it was about 100m in other tests with thin forest)

1- The Russian 11-man squads are in the forest on 'Hide' and short arcs.
They easily see the Germans walking on 'Move' at over 200m but I hold their fire for the whole test to see what happens. The Germans haven't spotted them yet..



2- The Russkis are about 20m back inside the trees. I could have deployed them deeper inside but then they wouldn't have been able to see out..



3- zoom view..

[PoorOldSpike]

4- the Germans continue walking but haven't spotted the Russians yet..



5- but at about 50m range they spot the first russian squad and begin firing..



6- The Russian view, they didn't return fire because of their very short arc and routed soon after this screenshot was taken, but in a proper game you'd remove or expand the arc as soon as you want them to start shooting..


Conclusion- In heavy forest on Hide, you won't be seen until the enemy closes to about 50m, but in thin forest you'll be seen at around 100m.
Of course for total concealment you could deploy your infantry deeper inside the forest if the tactical situation calls for it, but the the disadvantage is that they won't be able to see out into open ground.
Reminder-the tests were conducted on a bright sunny day, so we can assume spotting distances in all terrain would be much less at dusk/dawn/night and/or bad weather.

[PoorOldSpike]

TROOP QUALITY
1- I deployed these 2 Red Thunder Russian squads behind the hedge on 'Hide' and short arcs.
(For the record I made the Elite squad Fanatic motivation/ Fit/ Ldr +2,
and the Conscripts Poor motivation/ Unfit/ Ldr -2)



2- I started 6x German squads walking towards the hedge on 'Move', and they spot the Conscript squad first, possibly because Conscripts wriggle around more and give away their position.
I don't issue fire orders for either side, letting them pick their own targets..



3- The Germans and Conscripts begin exchanging fierce fire, and the Elites also start to join in..

[PoorOldSpike]

4- After several turns of combat with heavy losses on both sides, the Conscripts call it a day and retreat to behind the house down the red arrow (I never issued the retreat order), but the Elites stand their ground to a man (circled).
Some broken Germans have run to the shelter of the trees..




5- There are only 2 Elites left standing; the rest are dead or wounded. This is a drawback of Fanaticism, as they'll rarely retreat to safety and will hold their ground at all cost..




6- The Conscripts on the other hand have suffered fewer casuaties because they retreated when things got hot.


Conclusions
Conscripts tend to be spotted earlier, and tend to retreat quicker.
Elites tend never to retreat