Black Sea Discussions

[PoorOldSpike]

THE (gulp) REAL THINGS

Ukrainian tank near Vuhlehirsk, west of Debaltseve





Ukrainian troops near Slavyansk



Ukrainian tank near Debaltseve



Ukranian AFV's near Artemivsk



Ukrainian tanks near Artemivsk, Feb 2015



Ukrainian AFV's near Slavyansk

[PoorOldSpike]

Separatist tank near Yenakieve, Feb 2015



Separatist tank



Separatists near Debaltseve, March 2015



Separatist tanks



Separatist tanks, Nov 2014




Separatist Konkurs ATGM (AT-5 Spandrel), also mounted on BMP's

[PoorOldSpike]

The town of Debaltseve sits on an important road/rail hub, notably the route between the Separatist major cities of Donetsk and Lugansk (in WW2 known as Stalino and Voroshilovgrad respectively)



Ukrainian tank on the Artemovsk-Debaltseve road



Separatist tanks



Ukrainian T-64 Bulat near Debaltseve



Separatist tanks near Debaltseve



Ukrainian APC in Debaltseve, Jan 2015



Separatist vehicle in Uglegorsk near Debaltseve, Feb 2015

[PoorOldSpike]

RUSSIAN LIGHT VEHICLES





The official listing below tells us what their jobs are, eg Arty observation vehicle, Command vehicle, Tank destroyer etc-


Note- Ukrainian light vehs are in post #69 of this sensational thread.
There's also an ATGM chart in #26, and pretty pictures of them in #5

[PoorOldSpike]

I've just given this advice below to a new Black Sea player, and if anybody wants to comment on it or add any more advice for newcomers, go ahead..:)

"Compared to WW2, you'll soon notice that main battle tanks are absolutely lethal in BS because their optics are so good that they rarely miss even at long range, and their shots rarely ricochet.
Their armour is also very good at defeating AT-missiles, they rarely penetrate, but can still damage the tank.
Another thing- most infantry squads have got plenty of small shoulder-launched AT-missiles which can easily kill APC's and light armour so don't count too much on APC's.
Shoulder ATM's can also hurt tanks and occasionally kill them.
Some APC's have got 25mm and 30mm fast-firing cannons which are very good at wiping out tank optics and making them blind."

[PoorOldSpike]

The American Javelin missile gives the US player a tremendous advantage because it dives from above into tanks thinner top armour, killing them nearly every time, and even APS-equipped tanks rarely stop it.
Also the Abrams seems to be noticeably better than other nations tanks because it seems to spot and fire at them before they spot it.
For those reasons players who want a balanced battle should agree to play as the Russians and Ukrainians.

[PoorOldSpike]

A question that often comes up is "Who has the better equipment, Russians or Ukrainians?"
I honestly don't know because it all depends on what you prefer buying. For example if you like buying hard-hitting APC's, the Russian MT-LBM 6MB with its 30mm cannon is excellent value at only 116 purchase points.
By contrast, the cheapest Ukrainian APC with a 30mm cannon is the BTR-4E at 178 pts.
And if you like artillery, Russian TRP's are dirt cheap, but Ukrainian TRP's cost much more (standard rarity)
As for tanks, I can't see much difference between the countries at the moment, as both sides are capable of inflicting severe damage on the other with the latest tanks (Russian T-90AM and Ukrainian Oplot)
Noob note- if you don't mind forking out a lot of cash, any tank with 'APS' in its name has the best protection it's possible to have.
And remember whatever you buy in Black Sea, the higher the Experience level, the costlier they are.

PS- I was the Russians in the recent 'Ukraine Storm' tourney and my scoresheet was-
Played 7, Won 3, Lost 2, Drawn 2, so that indicates neither the Russians or Ukrainian equipment had a clear superiority, and I think we can say the forces are about equal based on that small sample at least.

[raz_atoth]

Their armour is also very good at defeating AT-missiles, they rarely penetrate, but can still damage the tank.

I think this only statement holds only if you're driving an Abrams :) The frontal armor of an Abrams is strong enough to defeat any ATGMs up to and including AT-14. The AT-15 Springer ATGMs (fired by the Khrizantema) might be powerful enough to regularly defeat the Abrams, but i still need to test it :)

On the other hand the Russian/Ukrainian armor is very fragile. A Corsair/Skif rocket is more than enough to destroy the T-90, so don't rely on the armor to stop the ATGMs.

The American Javelin missile gives the US player a tremendous advantage because it dives from above into tanks thinner top armour, killing them nearly every time, and even APS-equipped tanks rarely stop it.

Correct. The Javelin dives from above, thus it'll completely bypass the APS. I haven't so far seen a single Javelin being stopped by Arena, although i've seen the javelins sometimes miss. Thus, if you're playing with the russians vs the US, don't spend your precious points on APS equipped AFVs because it'll die just as easily as those vehicles not having APS. If you're playing against Ukraine, buy as much APS equipped tanks as you can afford, it'll stop any ATGMs the ukrainians can throw at it.

A question that often comes up is "Who has the better equipment, Russians or Ukrainians?"

I think the Russian equipment is superior. Not by a huge margin, but if properly employed it should give the russian player the edge. I'll detail below why i think that's the case.

As for tanks, I can't see much difference between the countries at the moment, as both sides are capable of inflicting severe damage on the other with the latest tanks (Russian T-90AM and Ukrainian Oplot)

The T-90AM in my experience is still a superior tank to the Oplot. The difference isn't huge, it's small actually, but all things being equal, i'd still prefer to have the T-90AM.

For example if you like buying hard-hitting APC's, the Russian MT-LBM 6MB with its 30mm cannon is excellent value at only 116 purchase points.
By contrast, the cheapest Ukrainian APC with a 30mm cannon is the BTR-4E at 178 pts.

Good points, POS. The MT-LBM is quite a potent tool if used like it was intended aka: as a battlefield taxi. The russians can more cheaply transport units around the map using the MT-LBM than the ukrainians can with the BTR-4E. Also, the MT-LBM is a tracked vehicle, while BTR-4E is wheeled, thus MT-LBM has better cross-country capabilities.

Just one observation. MT-LBM is blind like a bat. Don't count on it on engaging enemy APCs/IFVs with to much success despite it's fancy 30mm cannon. If you're likely to encounter enemy AFVs pick the BMP-2/BMP-3. They're more expensive, but they're more expensive for a reason.

Also, some observations regarding the IFVs both sides can field. The best IFV the ukrainians can deploy is the BMP-2. The russians on the other hand have the BMP-2M, BMP-3, BMP-3M. For those of you who don't know, the 'M' in the 2M/3M stands for 'modernized'. Again, the russians win.

Last but not least, the ukrainians don't have an AFV i absolutely love: the Khrizantema. Khriz. is the only vehicle i'm aware of which can detect and engage targets through smoke using it's radar. A tactic i often employ is to have a t-90/BMP-3 drive in front of the khriz. and pop smoke once an enemy target comes into sight. Then, the Khriz will come forward and engage with it's potent ATGMs the enemy targets.

[PoorOldSpike]

...MT-LBM is blind like a bat...

Yes that's another big difference between modern warfare and WW2 that I haven't quite worked out yet, namely whether to stay buttoned or unbuttoned in Black Sea!
Personally I play it safe and keep ALL my tanks and APC's etc buttoned all the time because I assume the tank commanders have got fancy high-tech IR vision screens down in their turrets and can therefore see enemy tanks and infantry faces glowing as warm as toast.
But some APC's might only have low-tech optics and be almost blind as bats, and the commander might see better by being unbuttoned.
Problem is, we don't know which APC's are best to operate unbuttoned, so like I said I button everything up to be on the safe side..:)