LOS frustation & other bugs playing germans - Storm in the East Tournament - Round 1

[raz_atoth]

Great scenario though. Who made it?

The map is part of this master map , but i modified it to give the players more tactical options. The units have been entirely picked by me. So, i guess i can claim the paternity of the scenario

Just to clarify the engine is the same between RT and BS. I suppose it is not exactly identical because the BS engine has some more fixes but none that related to spotting, LOS or LOF as far as I know. So your BS games and your RT games are running with the same spotting rules etc.

Just sayin'

That's my understanding as well. As far as i know both RT and BS are using the same engine, so spotting should use the same routines in both cases. However, spotting in BS might feel a bit different due to the modern equipment, which i guess explains why GAZNZ thinks BS handles spotting better.

[PoorOldSpike]

..BS games and your RT games are running with the same spotting rules etc

I'm still trying to work out whether it's best for BS tank commanders to be unbuttoned so that they hopefully spot the enemy quicker, or whether they should stay buttoned so that they can use their fancy IR optics down in the tank to spot even better?

[GAZNZ]

Keep them in the tank buttoned.
There equipment spots better.
Unbutton if you are using extra guys onboard only.

RT feels very sluggish also compared to BS from a graphics / performance issue. I guess thats its CM2 engine.
My mate posted on the BF forums re spotting which got into detailed discussion and showed there were considerable issues. This was months back.
They do there vision / sound check every 7 sec - all units
As with movement i think vision is also grid based.
Which is why guys move funny due to grid restrictions.
Prob with RT is if guys park a jeep up
they are unsure if its there with iron settings once they are out of sight and ive noted this caused delays issues with loading back on as its not visible.
Irons good for some aspects poor for others.
BS they have comms and better radio so more of the time spotting is generally better with C3 and general spotting ive found. The game flows better.
Yes could be the equipment. Buts it the overall feel of the game.

At the end of the day troops moving through forest
the aspect of them being in camo etc is taken into account and they may be hard to see in any game.
Modern tech may make them easier to see.

But a moving tank or HT 200 metres away coming at you over open clear grass
how can you possibly not see it when 10 guys staring at them. These are the RT bugs lol
My tank in trees not seeing an enemy pziv tank on an open bridge side profile with technically gunner optics , commander binos, and 4 squads with binos staring at it - full c2.
Thats wrong.
Button pziv sees and shoots very quickly at my tank killing it in 10 seconds.
its turrent is facing away forward lol
I know RT needs a big patch as i sent some bugs to them ages ago re HE rounds going through Panther tanks and exploding behind etc.
So hopefully it gets some love.

[PoorOldSpike]

...But a moving tank or HT 200 metres away coming at you over open clear grass how can you possibly not see it when 10 guys staring at them. These are the RT bugs lol..

I've got a theory that BS/RT spotting mechanics might give too much weight to a units frontal arc view, meaning it'll tend to spot anything straight in front of it (its sweet spot) fairly quick, but will be almost blind as a bat in its side and rear arcs.
Also perhaps its front arc sweet spot is too narrow.
The cure (if one is possible) is for a new patch addressing the issue by increasing units spotting abilities across the board.
In the meantime all we can do is keep our units pointing smack at the enemy and hope we see him before he sees us.

From RT paper Manual page 51 (page 52 in BS paper Manual):-
"Facing matters! It matters for both infantry as well as vehicles and greatly increases a units awareness and spotting abilities in the direction it is facing.
CM simulates the natural human behaviour to 'look around' the battlefield (which includes a higher attention to the front, less to the sides, and even less towards the back) for both infantry as well as each individual crew position on a vehicle or tank!"

[GAZNZ]

Yes something like that might be going on.
Im finding it all about sheer luck in alot of encounters rather than tactics.
Old tank ace wittman might disagree with the spotting lol

[A Canadian Cat]

However, spotting in BS might feel a bit different due to the modern equipment, which i guess explains why GAZNZ thinks BS handles spotting better.

Yes that is very true. The units in BS have a much better ability to spot the enemy - even the older ones with out all the new fangled IR tech.

[A Canadian Cat]

..BS games and your RT games are running with the same spotting rules etc

I'm still trying to work out whether it's best for BS tank commanders to be unbuttoned so that they hopefully spot the enemy quicker, or whether they should stay buttoned so that they can use their fancy IR optics down in the tank to spot even better?

Some one did some testing and posted a list on the BFC boards. I am not sure if I'll be able to find it but if I do I'll link it there. The basic guidelines are older generation vehicles are often still better unbuttoned but newer ones are better buttoned.

For example some that I do remember: BMP2 - unbuttoned, BMP3 buttoned (and better with passengers whose leader can use some of the new C2 systems). T64VB - unbuttoned, T90 and M1 buttoned.

[A Canadian Cat]

My mate posted on the BF forums re spotting which got into detailed discussion and showed there were considerable issues. This was months back.

Humm. I do not recall any thread that resulted in a consensus that there are considerable issues. There are a few things being looked at but none related to spotting that I am aware of. One of those things is the Panther issue - but even then as a guy with countless holes and fire coming out of my Panthers in game it cannot be totally screwed up.

They do there vision / sound check every 7 sec - all units

Mostly true. 7s is not a guaranteed time but people who have done testing believe it is the default however it is clear that it varies for certain situations. First of all the spotting checks are done on a rolling basis - in other words not every unit in the game gets time on the CPU to check spotting every 7s. What happens is that there is some number of units getting CPU time to check spotting extremely frequently it just rolls through the list of units. When units become close to each other (no idea what determines close) the spotting cycle increases dramatically for those units. Since when units are 50m apart a lot can happen in 7s.

As with movement i think vision is also grid based.
Which is why guys move funny due to grid restrictions.

Indeed movement is tied to the grid or action squares (AS). Vision is to a lessor extent. There are short cuts used that are grid based for determining what AS's can possibly be seen from a given AS (after all there is no point in units in one valley testing to see if they can see units in the next valley over if there is 20m of hill between them). After that though the visibility of units is determined based on the actual units geometry and location even within an AS.

BS they have comms and better radio so more of the time spotting is generally better with C3 and general spotting ive found. The game flows better.
Yes could be the equipment. Buts it the overall feel of the game.

That is for sure. In BS it is much easier to find the enemy. The new gear and way faster C2 is a huge factor.

But a moving tank or HT 200 metres away coming at you over open clear grass
how can you possibly not see it when 10 guys staring at them. These are the RT bugs lol
My tank in trees not seeing an enemy pziv tank on an open bridge side profile with technically gunner optics , commander binos, and 4 squads with binos staring at it - full c2.
Thats wrong.

Nope not wrong. You are conflating having LOS with actually noticing the enemy units. This is a common issue that people have - their incorrect expectations. Sorry to sound harsh but I don't know how to not sound harsh when some one says "thats wrong" when they are the ones who are wrong You will remain sad if you do not adjust your expectations. Which is entirely up to you.

Pause for a cooling off.....

OK hopefully you cooled off after my harshness too.

Here is the thing BFC is not just modelling line of sight and line of fire and all the technical goodies in the vehicles. They are also modelling the human solider too. So just because there is a team of enemy soldiers at the edge of a woods not 200m away that does not mean that the soldiers on your side will notice them right away. Clearly enemy soldiers in the open close to your men will be spotted faster that enemy soldiers in some cover far away. The game models this too. But even then your guys might not notice them right away. And the enemy might notice your guys first. Just like real soldiers. Having all the great vision assist tools help but in the end human imperfection matters too. So Green soldiers will likely be slower to notice important things than Veterans will. The game is modelling this stuff. It also means that there *is* some luck involved which is why it is really important to do as much as you can to help your men do the best they can:

• give them time to spot things by having you men be stationary for extended periods of time (pausing for 5 or 15s at a way point is not enough to give them a chance to spot things in their surroundings)
  
• keep everyone in C2 so they can share what the see
  
• make sure they move carefully and with cover near by (cause then s**t happens you need a place to go and hide)
  
• ten men will be more likely to notice something than two
  
• don't forget that ten men will also be spotted easier (so those ten guys need more access to cover).
  

And the list goes on. The point is your tactical decisions matter a great deal but it does not eliminate the luck and imperfections of the solider.

I mean no offence I'm just telling you how the game is constructed to the best of my knowledge. If you disagree with that design decision that is of course totally your right. But keep in mind no one at BFC and none of the testers considers imperfections in the human solider modelled by the game to be a bug.

[GAZNZ]

Thanks for your reply
No offence taken ;)
I actually play like its real, try to appreciate how
the guys would see things - do things on the ground.
I think from my weapons experience how i would feel or would react in situations.
I expect a %to fail, run , cower and miss , not shoot or not see.
I do all the things you said and more.
But when you setup a good C2 its frustrating when it fails 3! times in a row with seperate tanks and supporting units.
There comes a point where luck it seems takes over too much.
Any way I hope there RT patch in the future helps this.
Cause it a good game.
RT seems more buggy than CMBN.
CMBS plays very well.
Cheers

[Vodn Sigfodr]

Sorry to sound harsh but I don't know how to not sound harsh when some one says "thats wrong" when they are the ones who are wrong

You guys must live in Europe!