Defensive Fire ?

[Landser34]

I would like to hear your opinions on defensive fire if you are like me and dont fire much at all because it seems to me gives the attacker more opportunity to inflict casualties on your units and when everybody and their brother that has a line of site to you can fire multiple times at you.

[GerryM]

This is the way I think also especially as there is so much fire that can come back at you, even from units not close to your fire.

How do you not fire (is it by setting Opportunity Fire to Never or just an adjacent hex?).

[Strela]

I would like to hear your opinions on defensive fire if you are like me and dont fire much at all because it seems to me gives the attacker more opportunity to inflict casualties on your units and when everybody and their brother that has  a line of site to you can fire multiple times at you.

That's one of the challenges - who can bring more guns to the party. This is one of the dilemmas the weaker player has to face, when to reveal himself, when to fire, when to run away.

Think of firing as a macro action, with the intent to stop the enemy from moving forward, there are consequences to trying to do that and it's defensive fire.

I played a number of test games with Dog Soldier of Bluecoat and in one I chose to fire as little as possible to reduce his ability to attrit me. Ultimately it reduced my losses but allowed him to advance further as I didn't activate my zones of control. Everything is a trade-off.

As the attacking player, defensive fire is your friend and it can be the threat of it that forces the other player to decide when to stand and fight and when to not.

David

[Nemo84]

Think of firing as a macro action, with the intent to stop the enemy from moving forward, there are consequences to trying to do that and it's defensive fire.

I played a number of test games with Dog Soldier of Bluecoat and in one I chose to fire as little as possible to reduce his ability to attrit me. Ultimately it reduced my losses but allowed him to advance further as I didn't activate my zones of control. Everything is a trade-off.

Can you explain this a bit further? How does firing stop the enemy from moving forward? How does it influence zone-of-control?

[nim8or]

Yes, explanation please. I didn't realize op-fire had any effect on zone-of-control.

[Xaver]

From user manual, page 12

"Concealed units do not exert a Zone-of-Control."

If you dont fire enemy he cant know where are your units and move without zoc restrictions, VS an AI test i see how a Sherman unit simple run to my rear area without trigger defensive fire ... pass 2 lines of defenses with no problem hehehe.

[Nemo84]

From user manual, page 12

"Concealed units do not exert a Zone-of-Control."

If you dont fire enemy he cant know where are your units and move without zoc restrictions, VS an AI test i see how a Sherman unit simple run to my rear area without trigger defensive fire ... pass 2 lines of defenses  with no problem hehehe.

Yeah, but that's just a one-time occurrence. Once a unit has been spotted, it typically stays spotted and thus continually exerts a ZOC whether or not it actually fires more than once (and thus repeatedly exposes itself to op-fire). Also units can be spotted without actively breaking concealment.

Strela made it sound as if each firing action influenced ZOC, hence why I (and probably nim8or as well) became confused. Basically firing is not a macro-action with the intent to stop the enemy from moving forward and with defensive fire as a consequence, concealment is. A unit is typically concealed only once per game, but fires many times each turn.

[Strela]

From user manual, page 12

"Concealed units do not exert a Zone-of-Control."

If you dont fire enemy he cant know where are your units and move without zoc restrictions, VS an AI test i see how a Sherman unit simple run to my rear area without trigger defensive fire ... pass 2 lines of defenses  with no problem hehehe.

Yeah, but that's just a one-time occurrence. Once a unit has been spotted, it typically stays spotted and thus continually exerts a ZOC whether or not it actually fires more than once (and thus repeatedly exposes itself to op-fire). Also units can be spotted without actively breaking concealment.

Strela made it sound as if each firing action influenced ZOC, hence why I (and probably nim8or as well) became confused. Basically firing is not a macro-action with the intent to stop the enemy from moving forward and with defensive fire as a consequence, concealment is. A unit is typically concealed only once per game, but fires many times each turn.

Nemo84,

You're right, that's what I'm referring to. That said, don't assume it's a once a game occurrence. I have played players here at the blitz who have the ability to 're-conceal' their units - particularly in the bocage.

Sorry if I mislead anyone, but the initial act of firing is more important than people realise.

David

[Dog Soldier]

Yeah, but that's just a one-time occurrence. Once a unit has been spotted, it typically stays spotted and thus continually exerts a ZOC whether or not it actually fires more than once (and thus repeatedly exposes itself to op-fire). Also units can be spotted without actively breaking concealment.

Strela made it sound as if each firing action influenced ZOC, hence why I (and probably nim8or as well) became confused. Basically firing is not a macro-action with the intent to stop the enemy from moving forward and with defensive fire as a consequence, concealment is. A unit is typically concealed only once per game, but fires many times each turn.

What you seem to be describing is play against the AI which will hide units but then expose them because the AI is not so smart.

It is easy to return to concealed status in many cases.  l move to a location not spotted by enemy units.  This is sometimes easier said than done because of long sight lines and enemy hidden units that see you move.  War is hell.

A sure way to do it is to drop smoke to block LOS to your unit and where it is going.  The unit will then be concealed in the next enemy turn unless they can move next to your unit.  Not the best use of smoke, but in some cases the hex you want the unit hidden in is worth it.  The enemy player can guess where you went, unless you use the smoke to get out of his LOS and move out of his LOS to where you want to go before he can acquire your unit again.

Like in real war I feel the game models this aspect very well.  A little luck and skill are needed to learn to do this properly.  Mastering the art of hidden units and controlling fire makes PzB an exciting game and worth the effort to learn.  In PzB there are no perfect plans nor silver bullet tactics that work as expected every time.  At least not against a human opponent.  That is by design.  Every command decision has a trade off.

A game of cat and mouse anyone?

Dog Soldier

[ComradeP]

When trying to hide units, keep in mind that spotting is calculated using the relevant values during the next enemy turn, not the current turn. This is important for the second player, as an increase in visibility on the next turn might mean your units are not hidden.

You also can't hide units behind enemy smoke for the same reason: it disappears at the LOS check of the enemy's turn, even though your units seem to be concealed on your turn.