Introducing Wargame Design Studios

[wiggum]

Wait wait, we must clearly differ between convenient mainstream games and real hardcore grognard stuff. The former may do well on Steam but if the later does so... I'm not sure.
"Gary Grigsby's War in the East" & "Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa" try to make playing a difficult topic an easy way, too easy for me and too easy for a real Grognard, so it's no surprise that they do well on steam.

Overall I'm worried that the customer base changes so much to wannabe strategist that each new game gets shallower than the one before just to please this new customer base.
If steam is really considered, think more than twice about it.

There we go again...
Honestly, with a customer attitude like this no wonder Tiller wargames are stuck in the DOS and Win95 age of gaming...

What you say is NOT TRUE !
"Gary Grigsby's War in the East" & "Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa" are both far more complex to understand and play then PzB !
Also, both offer far less "action" and are much more "dry" in their gameplay.
Both are MUCH more "Grognard" then PzB !

If you think "Gary Grigsby's War in the East" is a watered down game for the "wannabe strategist" on Steam then i really doubt how much you know about wargaming.

There are many hardcore games on Steam, from highly realistic combat flight simulators over complex 2D RPG's to highly complex wargames.
Not one of these hardcore games got ever "shallower" in gameplay over time just to please the (as you call them) "wannabe" audience on Steam !
Some may got more accessible, got better tutorials, a better UI or better manuals...is this a bad thing ?

Your talk about "wannabe strategist" shows a elitist attitude that hurts the game and the whole wargaming community and reeks of ignorance.

You WANT your "hardcore grognard" games to stay as cumbersome and anti-modern (speaking of the UI for example) as possible, and sold only in the hidden corners of the internet where only "real" grognards meet. Thats silly !

[BigDuke66]

Customers like me are the reason that JTS still exist, do you really thing these are games for wannabes?
If so, it proves that you still have no clue how these games really work.

It's a simple fact that WitE is less complex than WitP:AE was, just like DC Barbarossa is less complex compared to previous DC releases.
Now I wasn't talking about action, both are surely no bear & pretzel games like fancy real time strategy that blinds you with graphics & sounds, but they are simply on the easy side of wargames(at least for me), for god sake WitE doesn't even have a replay to watch the other sides turn and DC:B removed the control over the complete air force, just 2 points to prove their approach to make them easier to chew.

PB is a tactical game, so comparing the gameplay against WitE & DC:B is useless as those are operational games.
You have to judge them alone and I'm rather sure that WitE & DC:B got the way they are to get more customers. I don't know if that was done purposely to satisfy the Steam community but that doesn't matter, it just happened and the reasons behind it are now unimportant.
What stops one to follow that path if the customer base really gets "many millions more"(as if that would happen) who are used to easy games and that outnumber the Grognards many times?
Nothing, well nothing except me and others who care and are able to see the potential for problems behind the ringing of the cash register.

Besides that I'm wargaming since the early 90's, my knowledge in this field stands without any doubt as I was part of many beta tests for a lot of strategy games and scenario designers.
That is no elitist attitude, it is simply fact that today many people think they handle topics in easy games and by that are capable to handle them in any other form of game. The first hardcore strategy game easily shatters this illusion and brings them back on the ground.


You just see the potential for money that fuels development, I see the potential for a downfall of a series, a downfall suffered by so many other series in the field of computer games.
Steam isn't the savior of the computer games, get rid of this illusion.
I stand by what I said, think more than twice about steam!

You WANT your "hardcore grognard" games to stay as cumbersome and anti-modern (speaking of the UI for example) as possible, and sold only in the hidden corners of the internet where only "real" grognards meet. Thats silly !

Stop talking such crap, didn't I provided some post ago points for improvements on the UI? I did!
And that is cumbersome and anti-modern for you? Get you mind back online and don't lay any words I my mouth that I didn't say and that can not in the any way be deduced from my posts.

Besides that I wouldn't call JTS webshop a hidden corner. At least it doesn't force you a plug in your butt to let you run your games, that would be what I call cumbersome and anti-modern, you can cite my on that.

[Xaver]

For me is a question of UI... many successfull wargames are based in easy to use UI over offering a great wargame... i refer that i have wargames with not easy UI and with "poor" graphics but that simple are very superior to other more visual games.

I dont say Tiller games cant be a success in Steam BUT needs be selled in a diferent way... turn based, 2D, not super pretty graphics... needs a diferent way to sell them

PD: i like the evolution of graphics in Tiller games and they are now in a good level but in same time jump was very high on this area and is not the same my apreciation of graphics evolution than for a total new player.

Maybe one thing to do could be offer Demo in Steam... is a good test that could attract new players and well is not going to kill the options to have players that in other way simple cant know that Tiller games exist.

[wiggum]

Customers like me are the reason that JTS still exist, do you really thing these are games for wannabes?
If so, it proves that you still have no clue how these games really work.

Whats a "wannabe" ?
And why should such a "wannabe" not be able to enjoy and play PzB ?!

It's a simple fact that WitE is less complex than WitP:AE was, Just like DC Barbarossa is less complex compared to previous DC releases.

Ah, WitP:AE, the mother of all monster wargames...a game that you can only play if you have no other things to do in you free time like friends, a family, sport or other games.
Maybe WitE is a bit less complex because they found out that its not worth designing a game that only a handful of crazy grognards with no life outside of wargaming will ever play ?

Now I wasn't talking about action, both are surely no bear & pretzel games like fancy real time strategy that blinds you with graphics & sounds, but they are simply on the easy side of wargames(at least for me), for god sake WitE doesn't even have a replay to watch the other sides turn and DC:B removed the control over the complete air force, just 2 points to prove there approach to make them easier to chew.

Wait...so you say they are on the "easy side of wargames" ?
Both are still much harder to learn and play then PzB...so whats your point ?

PB is a tactical game, so comparing the gameplay against WitE & DC:B is useless as those are operational games.
You have to judge them alone and I'm rather sure that WitE & DC:B got the way they are to get more customers. I don't know if that was done purposely to satisfy the Steam community but that doesn't matter, it just happened and the reasons behind it are now unimportant.

Again:
WitP:AE, the mother of all monster wargames...a game that you can only play if you have no other things to do in you free time like friends, a family, sport or other games.
Maybe WitE is a bit less complex because they found out that its not worth designing a game that only a handful of crazy grognards with no life outside of wargaming will ever play ?

Also, DC:B maybe removed the control over the complete air force but they added the political layer and made the supply system more complex.

So you point is what again ?

What stops one to follow that path if the customer base really gets "many millions more"(as if that would happen) who are used to easy games and that outnumber the Grognards many times?
Nothing, well nothing except me and others who care and are able to see the potential for problems behind the ringing of the cash register.

You are just a guy with a elitist attitude towards wargaming, honestly.
Those who are "used to easy games" can still buy, learn and enjoy PzB !

Besides that I'm wargaming since the early 90's, my knowledge in this field stands without any doubt as I was part of many beta tests for a lot of strategy games and scenario designers.
That is no elitist attitude, it is simply fact that today many people think they handle topics in easy games and by that are capable to handle them in any other form of game. The first hardcore strategy game easily shatters this illusion and brings them back on the ground.

Having a elitist attitude is not equal to knowledge.
Sorry but you show, in my opinion, a very bad elitist attitude toward the whole subject.
Basically you say "i dont want these stupid peasants to play chess becaue its the game of the kings".

WitE, Command: Modern Air / Naval Operations and soon Command Ops 2 are on Steam and enjoyed by many players despite being far more complex to learn and play then PzB !

So again, whats your point ?

You just see the potential for money that fuels development, I see the potential for a downfall of a series, a downfall suffered by so many other series in the field of computer games.
Steam isn't the savior of the computer games, get rid of this illusions.
I stand by what I said, think more than twice about steam!

You are just ignorant towards the subject in my opinion.
Not one hardcore gaming series on Steam ever experienced a "downfall" because it was on Steam.
Try to proof me wrong...but you will not be able to do this even if you can come up with one series that suffered a "downfall" because it was released on Steam i will give you examples of 10 who did not had a "downfall".

I dont say Tiller games cant be a success in Steam BUT needs be selled in a diferent way... turn based, 2D, not super pretty graphics... needs a diferent way to sell them

...no it does not.
There are many many " turn based, 2D, not super pretty graphics" games on Steam that sell well because they offer great gameplay, just like PzB.

[BigDuke66]

Oh chief, you really live your name don't you.
Your just wasting our time if your ignoring simple facts and trying desperately to read things into my post that are simply not there just to justifies your unworthy worshiping of steam.

Xaver is right, a Demo to use the reach of Steam is a possibility, anything else as to be taken with great care.
It's simple fact that PB is just a modified engine of a game series that started in the late 90's and is by now overtaken by games that switch away from all the old boardgame elements like turns, hexes, IGOYGO, etc. that are the core of all JTS games. All JTS games simply aim at the Grognard, although PB might be the easiest of it.

WDS came to life without steam, they will prosper without steam, all the improvements they aim to do they do without steam, that's like Tiller did it since the 90's and that is like WDS will do in in 10-20 years IF they act carefully and not just swim with the main stream.
I stay to what I said, take great care if you toy around with steam.

[Xaver]

My "problem" with Steam is that in the moment you enter in Steam you need adapt your model to it... for example, you remember see an offer in a Tiller title??? (outside the games based in CS engine from Matrix of course).

Because sell in Steam means to discounts, offers and in general be ready to sell at 50% or less, this is why i dont see a good idea sell in Steam directly before test if is enough interest... Demo is the best option here and with the DLC system maybe prepare a player base before offer the full titles and well, have in mind that discounts are needed for Steam customers because they are "diferent" and hell, i want to see discounts even when i only delay one buy since tiller open the store (and was a SB title)

But returning to things more "attractive" ... i am curious to know if we can see scens outside of WWII... i think in WWI, Spanish civil war, China... focus in DLC offer good options to take a piece of a bigger action and recreate it with actual engine.

Ooo something i dont remember ask... with Pacific we are going to see some kind of "fanatic/Banzai" rule for japanese troops??? was a little meee that we cant test the PzC fanatical nations rule but looks like with PzB maybe we can see something like this hehehe.

PD: i cant wait to send you some euros to help appear more titles in serie 

EDIT: i notice that the japanese Regimental commander is Ichiki is the same phot used in wikipedia hehehe

[wiggum]

Oh chief, you really live your name don't you.
Your just wasting our time if your ignoring simple facts and trying desperately to read things into my post that are simply not there just to justifies your unworthy worshiping of steam.

What "facts", the ones you made up and cant provide any proof for ?!
I see you dont have any more arguments or proof for your claims, thats why you now call me a "unworthy worshiper of steam" and avoid to answer any of my questions.

Xaver is right, a Demo to use the reach of Steam is a possibility, anything else as to be taken with great care.
It's simple fact that PB is just a modified engine of a game series that started in the late 90's and is by now overtaken by games that switch away from all the old boardgame elements like turns, hexes, IGOYGO, etc. that are the core of all JTS games. All JTS games simply aim at the Grognard, although PB might be the easiest of it.

Again, whats you point ?! Seriously...
WitE, Command: Modern Air / Naval Operations, all AGEOD games and soon Command Ops 2 even more then PzB aim at the "Grognard" and ARE ON STEAM because the developers thought it would be wise.
They even release more and more "Grognard" games on Steam...for a reason !
And no, not one of this games has been "watered down" because its on Steam...that a lie you dont have any proof for.
Actually they have not been "watered down" at all, thats also something you made up and your only example was WitE which is still much more "Grognard" then PzB or even PzC !

And let me tell you a secret...you could still sell the games through Tillers website, Steam would just be another platform you also can use to buy the game.

WDS came to life without steam, they will prosper without steam, all the improvements they aim to do they do without steam, that's like Tiller did it since the 90's and that is like WDS will do in in 10-20 years IF they act carefully and not just swim with the main stream.
I stay to what I said, take great care if you toy around with steam.

You clearly dont understand Steam at all !
Its just a platform but its also the biggest platform that ever existed in pc gaming and more or less "industrial standard" today !

Your whole argument makes no sense...
WDS dont need Steam...yes, but they can benefit from it greatly like many many indie and wargame developers before.
Representing your game on the biggest platform and making sure you have the biggest possible audience sounds bad for you ?
Its a very convenient way to reach a bigger audience and basically free advertisement.

You hate Steam because it does not fit your elitist "grognard" lifestyle...great, i know that already.
But WDS and Tiller should not care about such "feelings" and keep up with the time just like other wargame developers do !

Guess what, Mercedes invented the automobile and produced them for years without a website...so why would they need one now ?
See how stupid that sounds ?

Because sell in Steam means to discounts, offers and in general be ready to sell at 50% or less, this is why i dont see a good idea sell in Steam directly before test if is enough interest

Thats NOT TRUE !

"Valve is giving developers the tools to set their own discounts and sales periods through Steam, Valve confirmed with Polygon today.
A developer by the username "Sharkiller" posted a screenshot of a page accessible by developers with games published through Valve's service. According to the page, a new Steamworks tool will allow developers to set their own discount amounts for custom periods, as well as choose to opt in to upcoming weekly Steam sales."
http://www.polygon.com/2014/2/26/5450160...-discounts

Steam DOES NOT force a developer to do a discount !

have in mind that discounts are needed for Steam customers because they are "diferent"

Also not true, you just keep making stuff up !
Many will not buy it at full price but these guys would anyway never buy a Tiller game.
Then you will have many that never heard of PzB but think its interesting an buy it to check it out.
Others will put it on their wishlist and maybe buy it if you do a -10% sale on Christmas.
And the whole current customer base will buy it anyway ! (besides BigDuke66 maybe...because Steam is to mainstream for him)

[Xaver]

I dont said that Steam force developers offer discount, i say that using Steam made you enter in a bigger "sea" where you are not the only "shark" and if your plan is not offer discounts with developers offering them you are going to be eated by competitors.

Some years ago find wargames in Steam was at least rare, now the "big sharks" of wargames "niche" are in Steam, they can offer similar products (not all close to the type of games Tiller offer) and with discounts in a range of 20-50% (i see bigger discounts for example with "Hell" even few weeks after release) and this help them sell with the discount bait... enter in Steam with no plans to release some kind of discounts to buff shells to mantein interest in serie... outside launch of game wargames appear in first line with discounts, new releases of that kind of "indi" wargames are not in the front page of Steam and for many guys this is where know about invest money.

Apart this Tiller games are not "cheap" cheaper than Matrix-Slitherine YES but are the kind of games that people want "touch" before invest money specially for guys that are out of wargaming... this is why i find interesting offer Demo in Steam, explore if there is enough interest and well, try have Steam as alternative plataform to offer the games and if we can see in future somekind of discount for them better for customers and better for devs because this means that games have good sells and is possible "lose" money to sell them.

Any way i think talk about Steam now is irrelevant, i am more interested in have Demo and PzB3 ASAP hehehe.

[BigDuke66]

@Xaver
Very true post, at least one that is willing to view reality like it is.
Speaking of discount, Tiller games as download are already 10 dollar cheaper compared to the HPS physical disks.

@wiggum
I'm tired of your insane interpretations of my posts. The only one making things up is you with you cry baby attitude and your not ending rogation that nothing is & can be wrong with steam.

That is not how business is done unless you want to flush it down the toilet before it even started.
In business steps are taken with great care, you might not want to see the problems that can come with steam, still reasonable people especially those in charge of WDS will surely not have this attitude because they just can't allow themselves such a silly behavior.

[wiggum]

I dont said that Steam force developers offer discount, i say that using Steam made you enter in a bigger "sea" where you are not the only "shark" and if your plan is not offer discounts with developers offering them you are going to be eated by competitors.

Most wargame developers on Steam rarely do any discounts at all and if they do its mostly -10% or -15%.
PzB would have no competition on Steam because there is no other platoon level WW2 hex&counter wargame currently on Steam.
It would be the shark !

Some years ago find wargames in Steam was at least rare, now the "big sharks" of wargames "niche" are in Steam, they can offer similar products (not all close to the type of games Tiller offer) and with discounts in a range of 20-50% (i see bigger discounts for example with "Hell" even few weeks after release) and this help them sell with the discount bait... enter in Steam with no plans to release some kind of discounts to buff shells to mantein interest in serie... outside launch of game wargames appear in first line with discounts, new releases of that kind of "indi" wargames are not in the front page of Steam and for many guys this is where know about invest money.

Just because some obscure "Hell" game by Slitherine Ltd. was discounted this means nothing.
Its most likely a deliberate move by Slitherine Ltd. to attract more people to the game thats all, most real wargames dont need any sales because they attract enough people without it.
Slitherine Ltd. is maybe the biggest wargame dev on steam and even they do rarely big discounts.

Apart this Tiller games are not "cheap" cheaper than Matrix-Slitherine YES but are the kind of games that people want "touch" before invest money specially for guys that are out of wargaming... this is why i find interesting offer Demo in Steam, explore if there is enough interest and well, try have Steam as alternative plataform to offer the games and if we can see in future somekind of discount for them better for customers and better for devs because this means that games have good sells and is possible "lose" money to sell them.

Thats basically what i said (without the discount part because you dont need them).

1) Release the free demo on Steam
2) Do a Steam Greenlight for PzB3 (you will see many people are interested in such a game !)
3) Release PzB3 on Steam
4) Enjoy your success and release more PzB titles on Steam.