1201_01a Close Call at Kubinka HTH

[Plain Ian]

I see there's an _alt version of this scenario as well which might use the McNamara attack values that are now standard.

If you own Moscow '42 as well, it might be interesting to compare this to Naro Fominsk, where the German goals are again rather ambitious considering the weather conditions. The initial frontline is different from this scenario, even though it starts on the same date.

I will have a look at the Alt files. I was going to post a map at the start of the AAR showing the strategic position. Its the campaign map from the Moscow '41 folder which I've edited so that it just shows the Naro-Fominsk area. I can see that the map looks very neat in terms of Corps and Armies but doesn't quite tally with the start up of the 1201_01a start up positions? 

[Plain Ian]

German Game Turn 8 – Night



Well we are playing with programmed weather and the weather for December 2 is Storm. Its not good news for Eldar.

Rules for storm weather are quite severe



You could see the storm effect in his artillery fire. Despite hitting the 2/17th and 3/113th about 6-7 times each the best he could achieve was 1 man from each unit. Ranged fire from his infantry was also quite low. He averaged about 4 men per shot. The Russian shot as well as possible and did get artillery support, but with 3 Bn’s v 2 Bn’s they were a bit outgunned. Going by his fire results I would say his unit A is the weakest and B the strongest.

The 2/1st Gds Bn just off map lost 3 men to artillery as well.

Things must be hard for the Germans now. They were already penalised by the Frozen Penalty.
 


The effects of these are.


 
Russians are not effected by the Frozen Penalty but the Storm does effect them.  There is no Night Disruption in this scenario and Russian recovery is superior to German as you can see in the chart above. 

All in all things are indeed tough for the German in this scenario.

[Plain Ian]

Russian Turn 8 - Night



I've decided to keep the battle against the German 7th Div going. I wasn't going to use artillery as I didn't want to risk Ammo Low but if my artillery is firing opportunity fire during his turn I guess it will be checked then? I used two Lt Art Bn's to barrage his 3 visible units. Results were as expected.

The 2/17th has low fatigue and good Morale C. It undisrupted from last turn. I used it to against the adjacent units to draw fire. 

I then rotated the 1/113th with the 3/113th. I did not trigger any fire. 

Russian spotters saw German artillery and the mighty 138th Heavy Howitzers roared out twice and knocked out two guns.

And that was that. Everyone else resting.

VP and losses.

[Plain Ian]

German Turn 9



The shoot out at the OK Carrol (duh that should be Corral) continues between the German 7th Diviison and the Russian 32nd Divsiion. German artillery does better this turn but his infantry are only shooting as well as my Russian which is not surprising giving the modifiers.

The 2/17th disrupts during the turn BUT yet again recovers at the beginning of my turn. The 4th Sappers have also finally recovered. 

My spotters have spotted a new artillery raget to counter battery.

Russian Turn 9 



The duel continues but I hold back my artillery. The 1/113th has slipped into Yellow fatigue. But I think its worth keeping the battle going. 3 of his units are increasing fatigue at the cost of two of mine. Its not a vital area though.

The mighty 138th could not reach the spotted unit but the 154th Howizter Rgt could. I rested every other artillery unit.

Unfortunately I forgot to take a snap of the VP Chart. Nest time.

[Plain Ian]

German Turn 10 - Dawn



The Dawn turn begins and the Germans resume their advance. The German 7th continues its battle with my 32nd Division. The 2/17th disrupts but so does a German Bn. His losses still exceed mine.

The 19th Panzer Division finally appears. A Motorised Bn is in the woods and his armour faces off against my T-60 Bn. He loses 2 tanks and I lose none in the battle. However German artillery pounds the Russian armour in revenge and knocks out 2.

The Command Report brings good news. The 33rd Tank Bde is now released and the 1/25th recovered a BT-5 tank. 



At Navaya the 258th resumes its advance. German infantry plod forward in the deep snow. The movement cost of Storm is so high that they now cannot move into a woods hex and fire. They take light casualties from my opportunity fire. German artillery does its best to support the advance.

Despite the cost and slowness of his advance, Eldars email is still optomistic that he can make an advance on the 250 VP hex. 

VP's and losses

[Plain Ian]

Russian Turn 10



Only 5 units moved this turn. 

The 689th AT Rgt withdrew one hex.
The 33rd Tank Bde HQ and its Motorised Rgt Bn moved one hex onto the road adjacent to it so that it will be ready to move further next turn. (these two units are just off map to the north)
The 2/113th was moved up to allow the 1/22nd to retreat IF it is assaulted.
32nd HQ fell back a hex.

Only the 3/113th in the 32nd Div fired and it has disastrously disrupted when enemy return fire was triggered. The 2/17th was Low Ammo and already disrupted and the 1/113th was adjacent to 4 enemy units.
 
The T-60 Bn (2/22nd) did badly against the 19th Panzer Division’s tank battalions. They scored 3 fatigue hits but lost a tank and took 4 fatigue hits in return.

The 1/22nd Bn also suffered when they fired on the Motorised Bn of the 19th panzers. Enemy artillery took out a tank.

The 1/22nd is in a precarious position but if he does pin and isolate it, then it will tie up a lot of his units...I hope?

The 222nd Division did well against most of its targets in the German 258th Division. The 4th Sappers did not fire. Low Ammo and poor attack factors.

The 222nd Divisional HQ is still Fixed but I’m optimistic that it will get away ok. I’m reasonably happy with the situation. 222nd Division is well rested and most front line units are green fatigue. The 32nd Division looks a bit vulnerable but this is not a vital sector. Plus although he will win assaults against my disrupted units it will be quite costly for him.
 
I can’t see him getting past the 1/25th/467th Sappers and the 22nd Motor Rifle Bn?

VP’s and losses.

[ComradeP]

The morale and soft attack values used are different, for the Soviets: very different, from the McNamara standard, which makes this an even more interesting read.

As you've already noted, the Soviet and German firepower values are comparable with the frozen penalty in place.

I'll start a Naro-Fominsk game with Landser34 and will write an AAR so the scenarios can be compared. Naro-Fominsk covers 4th Armee's entire final offensive for the year, so it's a significantly larger scenario, but there should be similarities.

After looking at where the objectives are in the scenario you're playing, I think the German player has a reasonable chance to win if he plays well. In Naro-Fominsk for Moscow '42, you have to be a magician of sorts to win as the Germans unless the Soviet player loses a number of units (unlikely, as everything moves at 1 hex/turn pace).

[Plain Ian]

Moscow ’41 versus Moscow ’41 alt (1201_01a: Close call at Kubinka)

Based on Comrade P’s prompting I’ve downloaded Volcano’s Alt scenarios and had a quick look at it. I think it’s interesting to see the changes within the different units (German/Soviet) and also how that effects the balance between German and Soviet formations.

The first change that I see is that ALL German Infantry units are Morale B. That does not have much impact on the scenario since only the German 292nd Division in the Standard scenario was classed as A Morale. (probably a scenario balancing decision to help Germans crack open the front line?)

Soviet infantry formations are now all rated as D Morale including the Motor Rifle Bn’s of the Tank Brigades. In the Standard scenario the 32nd Rifles Division has quite a few Morale C units and even the 222nd Rifle Division has a full regiment of C Morale units. The Motor Rifle Bn’s were all C Morale in the standard scenario. This will have an impact.

So lets look at the new factors.....if you can make them out sorry.


 
German units:  Not much difference really. The Soft factors have gone down slightly and the Hard factors all adjusted I guess to reflect armour changes in the tank units. (I’ll try and look at these later) Interestingly the Pioneer unit has been differentiated a bit now by having higher Hard and Assault factors.

Russian units:  The standard Rifle Bn has been dramatically chopped. Its lost half its Soft factors and it no longer has a ranged Hard factor. It is also less capable in Assault. The Sapper Bn has been levelled up slightly and is now just a Rifle Bn with a slightly enhanced Assault value. The Motor Rifle Bn still retains its role as a good Assault unit but that’s about it. Its Soft factors have been reduced (its main weapons are SMG’s) and it now has no Hard factors? (is 0 really correct?)
German versus Russian:

The changes in alt clearly reinstate German unit superiority. Even with the Frozen Weather penalty I would expect German infantry to perform as well as Russian infantry in fire fights? The Russians do retain their superior Defense factor difference (16) but I’m not sure what impact that has in the game engine?

I’m not a PzC expert. This was just a quick snap shot of the Alt/McNamara changes to the scenario. I’ll maybe see if there are changes in the Parameter. I think I noticed that Unit Recovery for both sides was halved (4%/2% to 2%/1%) and there might be others. I’ll also show changes in armour and artillery whilst I’m waiting on my turn.

If anyone wants to read the Alt changes there is a superb Word document in the download which details exactly what was changed and why. I’d recommend everyone to read it. 

I’d also recommend the German player to use #1201_01a_Kubinka_Alt.scn if they want to give themselves a better chance! <G>

[Plain Ian]

The morale and soft attack values used are different, for the Soviets: very different, from the McNamara standard, which makes this an even more interesting read.

As you've already noted, the Soviet and German firepower values are comparable with the frozen penalty in place.

I'll start a Naro-Fominsk game with Landser34 and will write an AAR so the scenarios can be compared. Naro-Fominsk covers 4th Armee's entire final offensive for the year, so it's a significantly larger scenario, but there should be similarities.

After looking at where the objectives are in the scenario you're playing, I think the German player has a reasonable chance to win if he plays well. In Naro-Fominsk for Moscow '42, you have to be a magician of sorts to win as the Germans unless the Soviet player loses a number of units (unlikely, as everything moves at 1 hex/turn pace).

I had my stuff typed up and ready then went to post it and saw your post. 

Good idea on the AAR. Instead of reading my 'havering' about factors lets see how the game plays in an AAR. 

Ian

[Plain Ian]

Sorry no turn so I'll just haver on a bit about alt changes. 



I’ll just make a few general comments, none of them should be taken as authoritative.

German:  the German Armoured Cars in the Aufk. Abteillung has clearly been downgraded or corrected in alt. Its Hard factor in Standard was the same as the Pz 38 in the Panzer Bn which did seem a bit strange?  Its now downgraded to one third. It has however maintained its Soft factor, in fact its slightly increased.

The Pz 38 which was armed with a 37mm and the 37 mm AT unit have both been factored down in terms of Hard attack and Soft attack. I’m not quite sure why the Pz 38 is showing as Towed Guns instead of a Hard Target in the Standard scenario?? Mistake?

Pz Jag Abt 3 is the A/T unit for 3rd Motorised.  Its listed as a Mixed AT unit? I’m not sure what weapons it would have had in December 1941 but the alt changes to the factors show that it was clearly better against personnel rather than AFV’s.

Russian: The T-60 unit (2-22nd) has lost out a bit in the new alt scenarios. Its higher Soft factor has now been reduced below the BT-5. The BT-5 I think was armed with a 45mm which is why its factors are identical to the 878th AT unit. I’m not sure what the T-60 was armed with?

Biggest surprise is the 610th AT Rgt which is armed with the 85mm. It definitely looks like an 85mm AT gun now although I see it doesn’t merit a 2 hex range for its hard attack?

Do these changes help the Germans? I’m not sure?

The Pz38/37mm is now twice as good (6 v 3) as the BT-5/45mm in hard attack. It was 12 v 8 so 1.5 times better. BUT the Pz38 defense strength has now been dialled down from 9 to 5. The BT-5 has been kept at 4. I think this is fair as both were probably similarly armoured?

I’ve looked at the Manual and Hard attack versus Defense is the key so possibly it’s lessened the chances?

Pz38 v BT-5 standard = 12 v 4      BT-5 v Pz38 standard = 8 v 9
Pz38 v BT-5 alt = 6 v 4      BT-5 v Pz38 alt = 3 v 5

I’ll leave this for the purists.