fire value for mortars

Strela · 10-09-2019, 04:19 PM,

Guys,

Some interesting commentary here.

Let me check the mortar issue as well as the hedgerows as called out.

Give me a little slack as I am neck deep in a few other things currently, but if mortars are showing the behaviour mentioned then its worth checking.

Thanks,

David

Mowgli · (This post was last modified: 10-10-2019, 06:15 PM by Mowgli.)

(10-09-2019, 04:19 PM)Strela Wrote: Guys,

Some interesting commentary here.

Let me check the mortar issue as well as the hedgerows as called out.

Give me a little slack as I am neck deep in a few other things currently, but if mortars are showing the behaviour mentioned then its worth checking.

Thanks,

David

Much appreciated!

EDIT:
Sorry, I was all wrong! Hedge Rows do work as intended. I forgot about the fact that vehicles only benefit from 50% of the available cover. I also had troubles as the effect is listed (as "mod" in the brackets of the final line of the fire resolution info window) in combination with other modifiers (unit quality*, elevation).

The movement costs also seem to be correct. I messed that up! Sorry again.

It's also worth mentioning that if there are two options for hexsides, the game always gives the best available cover to the target. And units in travel mode don't profit from hexside cover either.

* The manual seems to be wrong here? Quality B units have a fire bonus of 25% (not 10%), quality A units a bonus of 50% (not 20%). 20% malus for quality D units seems to be correct.

Mowgli · (This post was last modified: 10-10-2019, 06:47 PM by Mowgli.)

Thread related to the "small unit" issue: https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards...?tid=68059

I also need to stress that the thread mentions an issue that has occured to me several times in Pz Campaigns: The more (even tiny) units the opponent has stacked in a hex, the smaller the chance you can disrupt them all (in order to conduct a successfull assault that dislodges the opponent). Morale plays a huge factor compared to unit strength/manpower (the size of the unit only affects the threshold at which a unit needs to conduct a morale test, but not the morale test itself). The only remedy I can see against this issue are the alternate direct and indirect fire rules. But Pz Battles does not feature alternate direct fire.

(I also wonder whether the fatigue damage - and resulting morale loss- in assaults are applied before the morale checks are made?)

But it's hard to think of any remedies. Idea: If a unit is affected by at least 1 enemy unit of a higher hierarchical/combination level (e.g. platoon vs. enemy company), it should suffer an additional -1 morale malus on all related morale tests (only in assaults?).

Also, for Pz Campaigns, it would be nice to have a maximum limit on how many units/strength can profit from a bunker/pillbox. It seems odd that all units that can be stacked into a hex can use the defensive structures.

Mowgli · (This post was last modified: 10-29-2019, 09:38 AM by Mowgli.)

I just wanted to point out that even "no effect" has an effect! It keeps units from recovering fatigue. That's more important than one might think at first sight. Mortars can help quite significantly to wear your opponent's force down.

Funny enough, firing everything at one target, hoping to cause at least a single casualty might not be the best way to use mortars. Better spread out the fire over stationary targets (particularly those who are unlikely to opportunity-fire) so that none of them can recover fatigue.

**Ricky B** · 10-29-2019, 12:50 PM,

Hmm good to know, thanks. I thought a loss had to be suffered, for men, or a fatigue hit for vehicles, so that is different from expected.

Regards
Rick

Mowgli · (This post was last modified: 10-29-2019, 08:37 PM by Mowgli.)

(10-29-2019, 12:50 PM)Ricky B Wrote: Hmm good to know, thanks. I thought a loss had to be suffered, for men, or a fatigue hit for vehicles, so that is different from expected.

Regards
Rick

Okay I don't know what was wrong with me yesterday - I made a more controlled test today and it's very clear that Ricky B is correct. Being fired upon for "no effect" DOES NOT PREVENT a unit from recovering fatigue. Neither in Panzer Battles nor in Panzer Campaigns.

Sorry for the chaos. I guess I missed that my units were opportunity-firing yesterday.

So the point of the thread that mortars are utterly useless (supposedly because their fire suffers from a density modifier/malus against smallish units) is still valid.

beldurax · 10-30-2019, 12:18 AM,

(10-29-2019, 12:50 PM)Ricky B Wrote: Hmm good to know, thanks. I thought a loss had to be suffered, for men, or a fatigue hit for vehicles, so that is different from expected.

Regards
Rick

Way to go on your Exercise Ticker, Rick !

All the best
Travis

Green · 10-30-2019, 05:38 AM,

(10-09-2019, 05:45 PM)Mowgli Wrote: * The manual seems to be wrong here? Quality B units have a fire bonus of 25% (not 10%), quality A units a bonus of 50% (not 20%). 20% malus for quality D units seems to be correct.

Just thought I would clarify that the manual is correct. It says that "There is a Quality Fire Modifier Parameter Data value, which is by default equal to one.." but it later says that "Inherent Quality Fire Modifier is 2.5 (instead of 1)". This gives the effects you described.

In actual fact it does not show in the parameter data so cannot be viewed or altered for PzB. No idea why.

Mowgli · 10-31-2019, 02:16 AM,

(10-30-2019, 05:38 AM)Green Wrote:
(10-09-2019, 05:45 PM)Mowgli Wrote: * The manual seems to be wrong here? Quality B units have a fire bonus of 25% (not 10%), quality A units a bonus of 50% (not 20%). 20% malus for quality D units seems to be correct.

Just thought I would clarify that the manual is correct. It says that "There is a Quality Fire Modifier Parameter Data value, which is by default equal to one.." but it later says that "Inherent Quality Fire Modifier is 2.5 (instead of 1)". This gives the effects you described.

In actual fact it does not show in the parameter data so cannot be viewed or altered for PzB. No idea why.

Good find! I have missed the modifier of the modifier. It would be easier if the manual just gave us the actual values… Rolling Eyes

Green · 10-31-2019, 08:38 AM,

(10-31-2019, 02:16 AM)Mowgli Wrote: Good find! I have missed the modifier of the modifier. It would be easier if the manual just gave us the actual values…

Agreed. This must have been an oversight. The fact that the rules imply that it is set to the default and that the actual value is only given in the summary of changes at the end of the manual, suggests it was intended to be explained but was overlooked. It would not be expected that a brief mention that it had been set to 2.5 would be all that was needed.

But it is an important change. Effectively, Quality A and B units cause 30% and 15% higher casualties respectively, as a consequence of this. That is non-trivial...