mortar patch

[phoenix]

Query for Strela/David. I can't now find the thread in here about the mortars being so utterly useless, and the patch you issued to mitigate that, which did help a little (not enough, I think, but that's just a subjective opinion about how little damage mortars do...) - but I was wondering if you were going to issue similar patches for Kursk, Normandy and the Demo?

Cheers,

Peter

[Strela]

Good question, Peter.

Let me look at what is involved to patch them all. We probably will either do a hot fix or if there is enough other issues a full patch.

From testing of a title under development, I can say mortars are more now effective but for two different reasons; the fixing of the erroneous calculation as reported previously and the grouping into larger units. For example in Kursk (from memory), there were 2 gun mortar units in some battalions. They were only good for smoke delivery. In our latest OOBs, they would now be a 6 gun unit at regimental level. This both increases effectiveness and reduces clutter.

We have been doing something similar with artillery, but are still testing it as full 12 gun battalions and katyushas can be devastating at this scale.

David

[phoenix]

Ok. Which title is that, then, David? I really look forward to a new one. Something EF, I guess, since you mention katyushas....

[Xaver]

Interesting, grouping mortars they are going to be more usefull and you reduce number of units to move.

With heavy arty and rockets... i dont know if is possible port the idea behind stacking penalty for infantry but in arty... if you use more than X tubes is a reduction of damage because more guns means more dispersion and reduce effectivity... this reward more surgical use of arty in small units and reduce the bigger number of guns units... they are more powerfull because have more guns BUT not a lot more.

Playing with numbers to balance more guns VS more dispersion when they fire.

[phoenix]

I hope you can roll out a hotfix patch, David. But also look at this issue. I just spent an hour playing the big Prokhorovka scenario from BOKS and it was a bit frustrating to spend so much time clicking through the masses of soviet artillery, each turn, to get the same results over and over again - 'No Effect'. I don't understand. 38 (or whatever) very large calibre guns firing at a handful of AT guns in improved positions in a 250m wide hex area, and over and over again 'No effect', not even fatigue. If they're firing at a bunker (I wouldn't bother) then fair enough. But is it really meant to be like that for the big guns (as well as the mortars, but I don't even try with mortars now)? The most I ever get firing on platoon size units in 'improved' positions is 'Fatigue', but only very very rarely.

Sorry. There's probably threads all over about this already...

[Fhil]

Unluckily, I have to agree with Phoenix here and even add some stuff.
Artillery seems to be a problem just the way as he states - small units being absolutely ineffective, and even full artillery battalions are not that effective as they probably could be.

Another fact - air support units (from Stukas to other fighters and bombers) are almost not worth calling. Not that they are ineffective, the ratio between their losses (and they cost some nice VPs) and the losses they are able to inflict on the enemy is really really wrong... :( 


Air units and their effectivity always seemed to be underated in the PzC games, but here in PzB, where on a tactical level the presence of direct air cover was that much more felt on the battlefield, is even worse..

You read about particular battle, the number of Stukas and fighters pounding the hell out of the enemy (Hannut battle in the Demo, Maleme - Crete scenario, various desert scenarios) and then you play the scenario - alright, well, by the way- here are two air units for you for this turn -one containing 4xStukas, one containg 4xBf or something. You call them on the masses of British units grouped in a single hex advancing across an open CLEAR terrain - usual losses? - 2 men/4 men/1man....but, every other assault costs you an aircraft :( 

These two issues - artillery and air units are keeping me from buying Kursk and Normandy. North Africa 41 is great, I´m really enjoying since it´s release, but, but...

Crossing fingers for the team to fix these..

[Strela]

Guys,

We will go back and double check the code. One of the big changes I have made in the latest projects is to group artillery where ever possible and reduce the number of shots that the player can make. we essentially have dumped the 'battery' limit where only three or four guns are in a unit and essentially allowed them to group in up to say 12 gun battalions. it makes a huge difference both in effectiveness and improved play ability. I suspect this is the same issue with the stukas etc. if they came in squadron strength rather than staffel then they would have an impact. We fixed this in North Africa, but we probably needed to give you full squadrons to fly all at once rather than the single staffels. Essentially i'm saying the North Africa OOB will allow us to adjust this easily.

Let me have a deeper look and decide whether there is value in retrofitting the prior titles.

David

[phoenix]

Thanks, David.

[5 Leichte Div]

Interesting, grouping mortars they are going to be more usefull and you reduce number of units to move.

With heavy arty and rockets... i dont know if is possible port the idea behind stacking penalty for infantry but in arty... if you use more than X tubes is a reduction of damage because more guns means more dispersion and reduce effectivity... this reward more surgical use of arty in small units and reduce the bigger number of guns units... they are more powerfull because have more guns BUT not a lot more.

Playing with numbers to balance more guns VS more dispersion when they fire.

Interesting read. I do agree - tho I do not have the immersion into the PB game as of yet.

Some odd observations of my own do concur - I also gripe when doing an IF support firing by small size units hasn't been very dangerous - not like DF infantry can be from strong "A" Morale units with good firepower ( Germans ). The IF support has been quite a minor result in comparison.  And - tank gun firing - "light" DF artillery - is very useful comparatively so.


What has been odd - from tinkering in PB Normandy - has been the defensive support fire from mortars and artillery in response to DF units' efforts. I have seen and been subjected to - a startling effectiveness  from such IF that had  done an incremental critical damage - to anybody. Sherman tanks KO'd by a 2 factor 81mm mortar unit SPW
counter fire ; many infantry units whittled down by Def. support fire in response after all of their DF fire - they got the worst of the exchange - in sum it didn't pay to fire at the Brits. This happens when such def. units do have such support attached to them.

Much the same in PB Kursk ; I had some T34s moving out of cover - get hit by Ger. 120mm mortars and lose a tank
for the trouble. It seemed that IF defensive support was a greater risk than my foe's own directed artillery/mortar fire.
My foe's efficient A-rated Germans were a nasty encounter when my Red Army got aggressive - always a shower of that responding def. IF fire - that did some hurting to my guys.

Do note - that the damage from all IF has been light comparably so. The game system seems to be geared toward an incremental total effect casualty-wise. 

I suppose that a "fix" might involve a greater random result that would be greater losses when it hits on target.
My 2 cents - thank you ,  man !

5 Leichte Div        

[Xaver]

A question about engine... i dont know if is possible introduce, for mortars at least, an ability (maybe working as optional rule) that made they allways deal fatigue to targets, now if you are going to group them made they have a positive result in base as is fatigue to enemy troops but something that could work with actual OOB using small units... i refer made mortars work as fatigue dealers (with an ocasional casualty), something closer to their real role.

And a suggestion related with changes... is possible you made like in Nap series and have for PzB 2 variants for same scen? one with the small mortar/arty/plane units and other with the bigger units? at least do this in first introduction of new OOB.

A question i have is if you group airplanes... how is going this affect their availability? even if you have 12 Stukas in an attack this not neccesary means they all attack in same turn... 3-6 could launch to attack and next turn you can have the other 3-6... i refer if you have 12 planes units made the unit can attack in 2 turns before retreat.

Now you are touching OOB... do you test some improvements in the AT combat at range? increasing effectivity on this area?

Thank you and keep working hard in the serie.... well and in other series to.