FWWC: Night Movement

[Steel God]

Clearly this rule does not mean what it says:

Night Rule
All units moving at night not by Travel Mode on roads or rail lines, or Rail Mode
on rail lines can become Disrupted based on the probability given by the Night
Movement Disruption Parameter Data Value. This probability is applied each hex the unit moves not by the stated restrictions.

That's what the rule says yet my carefully hoarded high quality (B) division that I attempted to move into position at night, in T mode, on primary roads suffered disruption after disruption. 

Here's a chnage suggestion, in FWWC games just make the night turns 1 long turn, everyone stays in place and no one can do anything.  Less frustrating that way.

[ComradeP]

Night turns are usually the only time when any sort of lull in the fighting can occur, so having 2-3 of them is welcome.

One of the issues with Fatigue management in Panzer Battles is that there are a lot daylight turns and hardly any night turns, the 2 (most FWWC/PzC titles) or 3 (PzC Japan '45) night turns are needed to limit combat.

For titles with shorter days/fewer turns per day (like FWWC), the 3:1 turn ratio between day/night allows your units to shake off Fatigue to compensate for the potentially pretty brutal losses.

Without knowing how you moved your units, it's difficult to figure out what the problem is in this case.

Units moving across unbridged streams or other hexsides along a road can become Disrupted because crossing a stream counts as a non-T mode movement action, but that's not likely to have been the case here if you're moving along a primary road.

Is it possible your Disrupted units exceeded the road stacking limits when moving into the hex where they Disrupted? 

In the patched versions of FWWC titles, night time disruption chance is 70%, which is reduced/increased by a quality modifier. An entire B quality formation suffering Disruption when moving 1 hex not along a road in T-mode or when exceeding the road stacking limit is an unlikely event.

[Mowgli]

Most likely this. If you move a unit in travel mode along a road and the "road stacking limit" (see parameters, F4) in the destination hex is already exceeded (by friendly troops already present in the hex) or gets exceeded by the arrival of the unit, then the movement does not count as a road-movement, in which case the unit has to pay the full terrain cost and may disrupt during night turns. It's a chaotic night time traffic jam.

In Serbia, the road stacking limit is about 2600 men, or max 2 batalions + small stuff.

[Steel God]

Night turns are usually the only time when any sort of lull in the fighting can occur, so having 2-3 of them is welcome.

One of the issues with Fatigue management in Panzer Battles is that there are a lot daylight turns and hardly any night turns, the 2 (most FWWC/PzC titles) or 3 (PzC Japan '45) night turns are needed to limit combat.

For titles with shorter days/fewer turns per day (like FWWC), the 3:1 turn ratio between day/night allows your units to shake off Fatigue to compensate for the potentially pretty brutal losses.

Without knowing how you moved your units, it's difficult to figure out what the problem is in this case.

Units moving across unbridged streams or other hexsides along a road can become Disrupted because crossing a stream counts as a non-T mode movement action, but that's not likely to have been the case here if you're moving along a primary road.

Is it possible your Disrupted units exceeded the road stacking limits when moving into the hex where they Disrupted? 

In the patched versions of FWWC titles, night time disruption chance is 70%, which is reduced/increased by a quality modifier. An entire B quality formation suffering Disruption when moving 1 hex not along a road in T-mode or when exceeding the road stacking limit is an unlikely event.

Yeah I know the value of night turns, I wasn't suggesting the benefits go away, just the actual ability to do anything, but I forget most of y'all don't know me anymore so let me clarify by just saying it's me being a damn smart ass.  I'm not really suggesting the night turns be done away with.

Now as for the actual night movements,  I don't mean to imply the whole division disrupted, but when the 4th B quality unit did it, i just hit end turn and said "bump that".  They were all in T mode, all on primary roads, so I don't think streams were an issue.  One thing you'd said that is helping though is road stacking limits.  I have heretofore assumed that if I high light the unit and it shows I can move into the hex it will let me do so.  The night rules don't mention stacking limits, and I have assumed that if the stacking limit was exceeded then I could not enter the hex at all.  What you're saying is that is not the case, it will let me make the move and disrupt me.  So, if that's the case I've learned (yet another) FWWC nuance because I don't believe in PzC you can enter any hexes in excess of stacking limits.

[Steel God]

Most likely this. If you move a unit in travel mode along a road and the "road stacking limit" (see parameters, F4) in the destination hex is already exceeded (by friendly troops already present in the hex) or gets exceeded by the arrival of the unit, then the movement does not count as a road-movement, in which case the unit has to pay the full terrain cost and may disrupt during night turns. It's a chaotic night time traffic jam.

In Serbia, the road stacking limit is about 2600 men, or max 2 batalions + small stuff.

Yeah that's gotta be it.  The column was doing it at different points along the road but it did seem to happen at cross roads and villages, where stacks already existed.

[ComradeP]

Road stacking limits in FWWC are generous compared to those in PzC titles.

In both series, the road stacking limit and the maximum stacking limit are also two different values.

When moving a unit or stack would mean the maximum stacking limit is exceeded in the destination hex, movement is impossible.

The maximum stacking limit can only be exceeded by reinforcements appearing in the hex, the unit or stack recovering strength through replacements/recovery so their total strength exceeds the maximum stacking limit or units using rail movement moving into/through the hex (the units can't leave rail mode when that would overstack the hex). 

When moving a unit or stack would mean the road stacking limit is exceeded in the destination hex, the selected unit or stack won't benefit from moving along the road and normal movement costs for moving into the terrain in the destination hex apply.

A single unit can always move along a road, even if it has a size that exceeds the road stacking limit. The road stacking limit is only applied when a stack is created through a move.

Example: in many PzC games, the road stacking limit is about 2 companies worth of units, but single battalions can travel along a road in T-mode.

[Steel God]

Road stacking limits in FWWC are generous compared to those in PzC titles.

In both series, the road stacking limit and the maximum stacking limit are also two different values.

When moving a unit or stack would mean the maximum stacking limit is exceeded in the destination hex, movement is impossible.

The maximum stacking limit can only be exceeded by reinforcements appearing in the hex, the unit or stack recovering strength through replacements/recovery so their total strength exceeds the maximum stacking limit or units using rail movement moving into/through the hex (the units can't leave rail mode when that would overstack the hex). 

When moving a unit or stack would mean the road stacking limit is exceeded in the destination hex, the selected unit or stack won't benefit from moving along the road and normal movement costs for moving into the terrain in the destination hex apply.

A single unit can always move along a road, even if it has a size that exceeds the road stacking limit. The road stacking limit is only applied when a stack is created through a move.

Example: in many PzC games, the road stacking limit is about 2 companies worth of units, but single battalions can travel along a road in T-mode.

Okay I get all that.  I even get the design decision to make night movement cause disruption for the time period.  I don't believe I should have to stop and calculate the stacking value before moving a unit.  If the stacking limit is X the game should prevent me from moving into the hex if the value is exceeded.  I can (and do) play lots of board wargames that all the counter handling is necessary, that should not be the case with a PC game.  In almost 10 years of testing PzC games for Glenn I don't believe stacking ever once came up as an issue, it was what it was, whether on roads or deployed.  But then again, no one was disrupting the units because a number value had been exceeded.  I was playing around with PzB series game yesterday, if a move exceeded stacking value the game prevented the move.  That's how it's supposed to work.  As it is in FWWC with night moves you have to move every unit one hex at a time lest the AI take you off road and cause disruption.  

It is what it is, I ain't gotta agree with it (and don't).

[ComradeP]

Night movement disruption is not a FWWC-only mechanic, or even a new mechanic. Neither is the difference between road and maximum stacking limits.

Night movement disruption first appeared in the FWWC series in France '14 in 2010 and in the PzC series in Tunisia '43 in 2011, it was patched into earlier PzC titles.

Depending on how long you've been away from PzC/MC, it might be a new feature for you, so I understand it can be challenging to adjust to it.

Night move disruption chance was also 100% in earlier versions of France '14, it's less punishing now.

There's no night movement disruption (or night fatigue) in Panzer Battles.

[Steel God]

Night movement disruption is not a FWWC-only mechanic, or even a new mechanic. Neither is the difference between road and maximum stacking limits.

Night movement disruption first appeared in the FWWC series in France '14 in 2010 and in the PzC series in Tunisia '43 in 2011, it was patched into earlier PzC titles.

Depending on how long you've been away from PzC/MC, it might be a new feature for you, so I understand it can be challenging to adjust to it.

Night move disruption chance was also 100% in earlier versions of France '14, it's less punishing now.

There's no night movement disruption (or night fatigue) in Panzer Battles.

As it happens yeah I've been away that long.  Last game I play tested was Sea Lion, and last game I played and reported before coming back this year was in April 2011.  A lot has changed between then and now, within the game and at the Old Blitz it seems, apparently not all of it for the better.

Thanks for all your kind instruction, it's been very instrumental.  I know my place now, I won't repeat the mistakes.

[Mr Grumpy]

Sorry late to this party, many thanks to ComradeP for explaining why the units disrupted.

If you know how the feature works then it is quite easy to avoid your units being disrupted by taking note of the road stacking limit, but of course we all make the odd mistake, on occasions I forget it is a night move until the first unit disrupts. 

I really like the night disruption feature, prevents the 24/7 combat that is possible when playing PzC.