France 14 Offensive Tactics

[Sir John Cope]

I'm bamboozled and at a loss. Turn 4, Home Before The Leaves Fall, I'm playing German, and I simply do not have an answer to French defensive firepower. German field guns are ineffective, MGs are shot to ribbons attempting to deploy, and any infantry battalion which manages to close to range is disrupted. 

The designer notes aren't much help: they refer to the Germans as an "unstoppable steamroller". Oh, yeah? As far as I can see, my best option is to run and hide: fall back out of range of the damn'd 75s and entrench. Is that really how you play this game?

You can't advance in stacks of infantry battalions. That ain’t gonna work. The Germans start with 1 million 175,000 men most of them on the front line. You have to be ready to take some hits. German indirect fire is a real problem for the French. You have to plan well with the big siege guns. German field guns too can be very effective. In the first few turns the French are dug in but after you force them to retreat (and you can) German 75s wreak havoc. One good tactic for field guns and MG sections on the attack is to move them into position at night and then open up at Dawn when you have the first turn. There are weak points in the French lines. There is plenty of space for maneuver. The game is 153 turns. Try to win it on turn 153.  jonny

Apart from the several places in the line where divisions have run into each other and are stacked deep and in contact on turn 1, I've avoided stacks of infantry, knowing perfectly well that the built-in alt-fire rule will cause havoc. But it has proved all but impossible to close to range with single bns: between his turn and opportunity fire, any bn is disrupted in a single turn, and often the second wave gets the same treatment. 

Several comments regarding the value of indirect fire from heavy guns, and I take the point. However, at the beginning of my last turn I noted that plotted fire from three heavy bttys directed on a hex occupied by just one MG section and one 75 btty resulted in three "no effect" results. That alt-fire effect again: the same game function which produces carnage against densely-occupied hexes produces zip against hexes held by just 30 machine gunners and 12 field pieces. Of course, given several days of 1915-16 style preparatory barrage, I'm sure there will be some sort of effect eventually - but at that pace, I might as well revert to 1915 German thinking: dig in deep and wait for them to come. 
 
It's not that I was oblivious to the situation: I know perfectly well to expect a reasonable simulation of WWI to reflect the imbalance of defensive firepower to offensive capacity. There's a good reason why the war turned into bloody stalemate, after all. But I also know that the 1914 German offensive did manage to reach the Marne in reality, and at the moment I simply cannot see that, or anything even remotely like it, happening with any human player who is not actively attempting to roleplay early-war French offensive doctrine. I don't think I can even force the line of the Sambre, much less the Marne.

[General Mod]

You need to find weak spots in the line and hit them hard with as much as you can. Set up 3 hexes back out of range of MGs and plan out your advance. German thinking of the time was that frontal attacks were stupid and costly. They wanted encirclements, who doesnt, but from a tactical perspective they would also try to attack the flank of the enemy.

It sounds to me like you are attempting a frontal attack and getting mad that its not going well. Not trying to be a d*ck, just pointing out what I think is the problem. So use your calvary to find the enemy, screen out his cav and most importantly find the enemy flank. You can see where one division meets another. Then move your troops behind the line and prepare to bust a whole in the line. When you start to break into a flank it cause the player to weaken his frontal defense and makes the rest of your attacks in that area easier.

But hey, funny that you are playing this particular scenario at this particular time. I just did a post in the JTS sub on Reddit. Im looking for people to team up and play this same scenario. 2 players per team PBEM. I have myself and one other guy. We dont know each other but it looks like he wants to play Germany, as do I. ANy interest in playing France and maybe getting the guy you are playing with if you know them to play?

what I envision is the 2 players splitting the forces between them as to not make one persons turn so long. Each team can split as they like. You form a strategy and pass the file between yourself until its done. Then the opposing team does the same thing. I love ww1, the opening battle and JTS. Its just playing one side by myself is a bit too much for me. It would take me forever. Let me know what you think. It could be fate that I thought of this idea last night and then saw your post this morning. :)

[Mr Grumpy]

Well of course I don't want to get into a "yes you can, no you can't" debate but having played this title over many years I have seen a German player successfully advance against the French multiple times, without sitting next to you to see how you are playing it is really difficult to nail down where you are failing where others have succeeded? 

Keep plugging away, maybe you will find a German opponent who can unlock your French forces and from that you may be able to see how it is done seeing it from the other side's POV. 

[Mowgli]

I'm bamboozled and at a loss. Turn 4, Home Before The Leaves Fall, I'm playing German, and I simply do not have an answer to French defensive firepower. German field guns are ineffective, MGs are shot to ribbons attempting to deploy, and any infantry battalion which manages to close to range is disrupted. 

The designer notes aren't much help: they refer to the Germans as an "unstoppable steamroller". Oh, yeah? As far as I can see, my best option is to run and hide: fall back out of range of the damn'd 75s and entrench. Is that really how you play this game?

Austro-Hungarians have it even more difficult in some Serbia-scenarios!  

What I tend to do is: 

1) Approach at night
2) Approach with MGs only within 2 hexes and set them up up. Sounds weird, but as MG companies are very small units, they suffer comparatively few casualties when under fire. So several MG companies concentrated in a single hex have quite impressive fire power and can resist enemy fire really well. Once the enemy is weakened by the concentrated MG fire, charge.  
3) Screen and soak up the damage with suicide batallions - have a batalion in front that hopefully draws all the opponent's opportunity fire. Once the opportunity fire is spent, bring forward your attack batalion. However, this tactic only works if you can get really close to the enemy unseen. But remember that unless the opponent is on a hill, you can also use your own units as a line-of-sight screen.

[Sir John Cope]

Well of course I don't want to get into a "yes you can, no you can't" debate but having played this title over many years I have seen a German player successfully advance against the French multiple times, without sitting next to you to see how you are playing it is really difficult to nail down where you are failing where others have succeeded? 

Keep plugging away, maybe you will find a German opponent who can unlock your French forces and from that you may be able to see how it is done seeing it from the other side's POV. 

I'm sure I'm making enormous mistakes, and I'm genuinely glad and relieved to hear that it is possible for the German to succeed.

[Sir John Cope]

It sounds to me like you are attempting a frontal attack and getting mad that its not going well.  Not trying to be a d*ck, just pointing out what I think is the problem.

I think that's exactly the problem. The Turn 1 setup for Before the Leaves Fall places a number of divisions in situations where the only options are a frontal attack or a hasty retreat, and I went with the former. But I'm not mad - just frustrated and worried that I cannot find a tactical solution.

But hey, funny that you are playing this particular scenario at this particular time. I just did a post in the JTS sub on Reddit. Im looking for people to team up and play this same scenario. 2 players per team PBEM. I have myself and one other guy. We dont know each other but it looks like he wants to play Germany, as do I. ANy interest in playing France and maybe getting the guy you are playing with if you know them to play?

I can't speak for my opponent, but I'd be delighted to try a team game. Email sent.

[jonnymacbrown]

[quote pid="441744" dateline="1609077906"]
I do take the point of your other recommendations, and my thanks for them. But overall, you seem to be advocating the solution of 1915: a methodical approach to an offensive, with heavy artillery preparation relying on attrition to eventually wear down the enemy's resistance through fatigue before launching the infantry offensive. 

And of course, that is exactly the conclusion the actual commanders soon came to. But not in 1914.
[/quote]

Not at all trying to be pedantic nor confrontational but what do you believe was the offensive approach in 1914? How are the tactics and strategies of 1914 not reflected in the game? How is a methodical approach with artillery, cavalry and infantry not a tactic in 1914; keeping in mind that there were more losses in 1914 than in any other year of the war?   jonny

[jonnymacbrown]

[quote pid="441737" dateline="1609073350"]
I want mobile operations and fluid fronts.....I like France 1940 not 1914....the best operations are the ones where you move someone out of a position without much in the way of actual combat, and that is NOT WW1.
[/quote]

It seems to me there is actually more room for maneuver in F 14 than in F 40 and I love playing F 40. But in 1914 there is a wide open French left flank that doesn't exist in 1940. In 1914 the French far left is protected only by one weak territorial division that is easily brushed aside by von Kluck's 1st Armee beefed up with 30,000 cavalry. Admittedly Panzer tactics are more fun in that you can move and shoot; you can't do that in 1914, so the offensive requires a bit more planning. But if you want room to maneuver there is plenty of it in 1914.  The situation is very fluid but it takes a while longer to manifest results. jonny

[Sir John Cope]

[quote pid="441744" dateline="1609077906"]
I do take the point of your other recommendations, and my thanks for them. But overall, you seem to be advocating the solution of 1915: a methodical approach to an offensive, with heavy artillery preparation relying on attrition to eventually wear down the enemy's resistance through fatigue before launching the infantry offensive. 

And of course, that is exactly the conclusion the actual commanders soon came to. But not in 1914.

Not at all trying to be pedantic nor confrontational but what do you believe was the offensive approach in 1914? How are the tactics and strategies of 1914 not reflected in the game? How is a methodical approach with artillery, cavalry and infantry not a tactic in 1914; keeping in mind that there were more losses in 1914 than in any other year of the war?   jonny
[/quote]

An example I've already made reference to: Before the Leaves Fall begins at 0600 22 Aug. At that hour, having established the bridgeheads over the Sambre which are the starting position for the scenario, "Buelow hurled three corps" at Lanrezac's 5th Army (all quotes H. Herwig, The Marne, 1914). Buelow's hasty offensive was met by an equally impetuous counterattack, the divisions of Sauret and Defforges charging the "German positions in the early hour mists of 22 August, flags unfurled, bugles blaring, bayonets fixed -- and without artillery support". 

A second day of fighting (Aug 23) ended at 9.30pm with Lanrezac, "appreciating that he had suffered a major defeat", ordering a general retreat, to begin at 0300 Aug 24. Buelow, at nearly the same hour, ordered the offensive to resume the following morning. In fact, what happened was 48 hours of retreat and pursuit.

Two days later on the 26th, as the battle of Le Cateau began on his left, Lanrezac's 5th Army held a front roughly Wassigny (169,138)-la Capelle (194,141)-Watigny (217,150).  Buelow's left had passed to the east of Chimay (228,134), about 40 hexes/km south from the outskirts of Charleroi, whence it had gone into action 96 hours earlier. 

I'm the first to admit that this narrative is lacking in many respects. Without consulting detailed official histories and war diaries, it is not possible from the above to say with certainty how "methodical" the fighting near the Sambre was on Aug 22 and 23. I'd submit, however, that the evidence I've offered makes it unlikely that II Army engaged in anything like a methodical approach - and certainly Gens. Sauret and Defforges did not.

Secondly I suspect that against any human player who is not actively attempting to roleplay early-war French offensive doctrine (which is to say, imitating Sauret & Defforges), German II Army is unlikely to duplicate its historical progress Aug 22-26. I empathically acknowledge that I arrive at this surmise on no worthwhile basis of evidence whatsoever, and I'll be very glad to be proven wrong. But as to what I believe to have been the historical offensive approach in 1914, I think the example of the battle of Charleroi speaks for itself.

[NikolaiB]

I mean, the scenario seems pretty well balanced:

https://www.theblitz.club/scenarios/fwwc...io&id=6869