ACW Supply

[2-81 Armor]

I have a question regarding both small arms (wagons) and artillery supply for super long scenarios like The Seven Days in Campaign Peninsula, or the mega-monster in Campaign Overland.

I understand wagons supply 10 men per point expended at a range of up to 5 hexes. Usually games have one wagon per division.

What happens if after say, 3 days of fighting a division's wagon expends all of it's points? The rules say empty wagons are removed from the game. This makes sense, but what happens after that? I know any wagon can supply any unit regardless of which division or corps they belong to, but let's assume they all somehow go dry. Are units then permanently out of ammunition for the rest of a super long scenario, or do new wagons appear as reinforcements? The rules (too me at least) are not clear here. I haven't noticed anything at all that addresses this. Can anyone advise?

For artillery my understanding is that depending on optional rules, a supply point can be per gun or per battery. No problem there, but in a super long scenario how would a designer calculate the at start totals?

I've done a little research, and it appears that with the Union Army, artillery ammunition loads were calculated at 128 rounds per gun within a battery (carried in caissons, limber chests, and wagons). There were supposed to be a further 250 rounds per gun in the artillery trains, and yet another 125 with the reserve trains.

I think if an Army's gun total was multiplied by the total number of rounds allocated per tube, that might be accurate but pretty big. To calculate by battery, maybe take the per tube grand total and divide by 4 or 6 depending on battery size?

With all that, how have artillery levels been arrived at? To me (and I could be wrong !), it looks like they are too low in long scenarios, and there is a major risk of running dry, especially with scenarios that last for a long time.

Like I say, I could be wrong, but can any insiders or designers shed a little light on this?

I do apologize ahead of time if I've overlooked anything that is already in the game manuals.

[-72-]

The unit designation on supply wagons are purely aesthetics, any supply wagon from your side (or in the case of something like NB or MP series  -from the same nation), will be able to resupply your units.

I haven't had a chance to read the artillery portion of the above ...so the above is only regarding the small arms ammo. Oops- ok you got that part it looks like, in that event, you're out of ammo unless another one comes in as a reinforcement, or you manage to capture some. If I were in that position it would be time to consider as honourable of a surrender as can be managed.

[Gary McClellan]

I've never designed a scenario that would go that long... but to give you a bit of an idea.

The first thing I do when I'm assigning artillery ammunition is doing a nose count of batteries. That gives me a baseline, but from there, it gets more complicated.

Can the army get resupply? What is their overall supply situation? If they're in good supply, I'll try to give them enough supply that they can use their guns reasonably freely, but not every shot for every gun every turn (accounting for both offensive and defensive fire).

In a longer scenario, I would take a harder look at that strategic supply situation. For instance, at Pea Ridge, the CSA ran out of artillery ammo on day two, because Van Dorn had marched in a way that placed Union troops between him and his supply trains (while the Union soldiers were encamped around a depot...) That would guide how I would set levels. So, the CSA would be ammo poor, and the Union would be ammo rich there.

I haven't done any ACW design, but honestly, this is a spot where I would start nagging the programmers for the ability to add artillery ammo every day, without just sending more guns. (This would represent resupply trains, and the designer would have the ability to set a level.)

[2-81 Armor]

I've never designed a scenario that would go that long... but to give you a bit of an idea.

The first thing I do when I'm assigning artillery ammunition is doing a nose count of batteries.  That gives me a baseline, but from there, it gets more complicated.

Can the army get resupply? What is their overall supply situation?  If they're in good supply, I'll try to give them enough supply that they can use their guns reasonably freely, but not every shot for every gun every turn (accounting for both offensive and defensive fire). 

In a longer scenario, I would take a harder look at that strategic supply situation.  For instance, at Pea Ridge, the CSA ran out of artillery ammo on day two, because Van Dorn had marched in a way that placed Union troops between him and his supply trains (while the Union soldiers were encamped around a depot...)  That would guide how I would set levels.  So, the CSA would be ammo poor, and the Union would be ammo rich there.

I haven't done any ACW design, but honestly, this is a spot where I would start nagging the programmers for the ability to add artillery ammo every day, without just sending more guns. (This would represent resupply trains, and the designer would have the ability to set a level.)

Gary and 72z:

Thanks for the response. From what you both are saying it appears that what I've been suspecting is true: by having wagons coming on as reinforcements it is possible to keep the small arms in ammunition, but for the artillery we're most likely out of luck in very long scenarios.

I've just taken a look at the very longest scenario I can think of, and that's the 1390 Turn (!!) Historical Campaign 100-640504 one from Campaign Overland. In it both sides each are given 5000 artillery rounds a piece for a Campaign that is supposed to cover the historical Forty Days. The way I see it, this is way too few, and both sides most likely would be out by the the time a week or even less has passed.

My original question was prompted by a custom Campaign Atlanta scenario for private use a friend and I have been working on together covering the period from when Johnston occupied the "Shoup Line" along the Chattahoochee, abandoned it, and Hood attacked Thomas at Peachtree Creek. This was projected to run "only" 383 turns. The problem we had/have was with artillery ammunition. This occurred when it was determined that the Union should start with 13050 rounds and the Confederates with 9800. (This was being calculated using the per gun optional rule.) Everything looked good in the editor, but when the scenario was loaded for test, the ammo figures went crazy with the Union being credited with over 38000 rounds, and the Confederates with 20000+. But if the scenario is started using the per battery rule, the numbers are correct. My friend has tried playing with different number combinations, and has come close to what we wanted for the per gun rule, but it's still off. I'm now in favor of scrapping the project and saying it just isn't meant to be.

I suspect the system just can't handle numbers over a certain amount, and things get skewed. The editor documentation is really sort of sparse when it comes to anything but the basics. I believe Gary's right that the ACW system needs a rudimentary supply system that can be used in the editor. I haven't seen anything but very basic support for the ACW games in a while (I mean the system itself, not the recent and appreciated graphic updates), and I'm not anticipating any. This is too bad, but some games series must be more popular than others, and programming time has to be rationed.

In the end I have to wonder why anyone would go through all the work and trouble to create a 1390 turn scenario without a workable supply system? I must be missing something.

  EDIT - And now I have an idea of what that something may be. I opened the Overland Campaign scenario as a two player hot seat game, and those 5000 artillery rounds had magically become 20,000+ rounds for both sides. I suspect that when a value over a set amount is entered in the editor for artillery supply, the game engine converts it when the designed scenario is started. If so this is nice, but lack of documentation IF this is an intended feature prevents intelligent use of it. That would explain how and why a 1390 turn scenario can be designed.

Anyway, thanks guys for the input. I appreciate it.

[LarkinVB]

At start of a scenario the game engine checks for the 'per gun' option and if that is enabled it multiplies the value set in the scenario file at line 8 by the total number of guns (on the field and reinforcements) divided by the total number of artillery units (on the field and reinforcements).

If there are reinforcements during the battle an artillery unit usually adds 6 more ammo (pdata value) on arrival. This is multiplied by the number of guns if that option was activated.

[2-81 Armor]

At start of a scenario the game engine checks for the 'per gun' option and if that is enabled it multiplies the value set in the scenario file at line 8 by the total number of guns (on the field and reinforcements) divided by the total number of artillery units (on the field and reinforcements).

If there are reinforcements during the battle an artillery unit usually adds 6 more ammo (pdata value) on arrival. This is multiplied by the number of guns if that option was activated.

This is exactly the information I need! Many thanks, and I believe that Atlanta scenario can salvaged now. Last question, is all of that information in the game editor documents (meaning I overlooked it) or is it knowledge that has to be acquired through experience? Either way, many thanks once again

[LarkinVB]

At start of a scenario the game engine checks for the 'per gun' option and if that is enabled it multiplies the value set in the scenario file at line 8 by the total number of guns (on the field and reinforcements) divided by the total number of artillery units (on the field and reinforcements).

If there are reinforcements during the battle an artillery unit usually adds 6 more ammo (pdata value) on arrival. This is multiplied by the number of guns if that option was activated.

This is exactly the information I need! Many thanks, and I believe that Atlanta scenario can salvaged now. Last question, is all of that information in the game editor documents (meaning I overlooked it) or is it knowledge that has to be acquired through experience? Either way, many thanks once again

It is knowledge being acquired by looking at the source code .

[2-81 Armor]

At start of a scenario the game engine checks for the 'per gun' option and if that is enabled it multiplies the value set in the scenario file at line 8 by the total number of guns (on the field and reinforcements) divided by the total number of artillery units (on the field and reinforcements).

If there are reinforcements during the battle an artillery unit usually adds 6 more ammo (pdata value) on arrival. This is multiplied by the number of guns if that option was activated.

This is exactly the information I need! Many thanks, and I believe that Atlanta scenario can salvaged now. Last question, is all of that information in the game editor documents (meaning I overlooked it) or is it knowledge that has to be acquired through experience? Either way, many thanks once again

It is knowledge being acquired by looking at the source code .

Just as I suspected. One thing JTS/WDS just refuses to do is share or make things available for us customers. In this series alone if you want to create a custom map from the master, do it by hand (unlike Pz Campaigns where there is a sub map editing tool) they DO provide some cryptic instructions though. Want to adjust or create an OOB? Do it by hand, and watch that you don't make the slightest mistake using MS Word, or Wordpad....you'll be a long time tracking it down. Unlike Pz Campaigns where an OOB editor is standard. Want a real supply line system? Keep wishing. They give you supply depots that really don't do much but keep units from getting isolated. Want game and editor manuals that help you understand what's going on? For playing the game they'll do that, but if you want to edit or create scenarios, well let's just say things are pretty bare bones for documentation.

If it wasn't for people like you who delve into code and are willing to share, I don't know about anyone else,  but I'd still be in the dark. For a price tag of between $29.95 and $39.95 maybe just a little more could be done. But since we don't really know the status of anything after John Tiller's sad and untimely passing (it's 5 days short of 6 months now), we don't seem to be getting any insights or information. about anything.

[LarkinVB]

I think they are great games well worth the money, I have spent hundreds of hours playing PBEM games.

I'm just speaking for myself as a gamer and not for the company, I'm not on their payroll.

A very small company with limited resources can only do so much.

[Gary McClellan]

You know... I actually created all the oob for SYW in UltraEdit. So it isn't really that we're withholding tools.

I do get the frustration, and I do try to help people when I can, though do remember we're all pretty much doing this on the side. Even for John, it was a side thing (with his military contract work), and for us now, even more so.