Newbie question

[agmoss99]

I've just become interested in the PzC series. Really enjoying learning.

One question - why are all vehicles the same points value for losses? Surely a tank is worth more than a lorry or whatever?

[Green]

Good question. Actually they are not the same. All units have victory points based on a complex formula that takes into the specific characteristics of that unit. This even includes the quality of a given unit.

This applies to all units, not just vehicles. Unfortunately these values are not easily accessed and can only be viewed by looking at the OOB file using the OOB editor.

John

[lezgo killemall]

Excelent question, thanks for asking.

I was always under the impression that they were all equal as well (should have known better).
Now for a follow on question.  Im playing the 1601 alt of B44 and their are 8 alt choices.  Now I'm guessing that I can cut that down to 1 of the 3 McNamara oobs since this is a VM scn but how would one know which to open?

[Green]

The relevant OOB is "Bulge '44_Alt7_McNamara.oob". I think the others were just earlier versions.

You can tell which one to open by opening up the relevant scenario file with a text editor. It will show you something like this :

20
#16_01s: The Battle of the Bulge_Alt
1944 12 16 6 1 0 1 162
5000 10000 15000 20000
1 0 95 75 0 0 0 0 0 0
1 5 2 0
0
1 3 3 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
Bulge_sub.map
Bulge '44_Alt7_McNamara.oob
Bulge_Alt.pdt
...



John

[Liebchen]

Good question. Actually they are not the same. All units have victory points based on a complex formula that takes into the specific characteristics of that unit. This even includes the quality of a given unit.

This applies to all units, not just vehicles. Unfortunately these values are not easily accessed and can only be viewed by looking at the OOB file using the OOB editor.

John

When you look at the score, you can see that there is not a 1 to 1 ration of points to vehicles (or troops, for that matter). The Germans, for example, tend to give up more points per vehicle than Russians.

[lezgo killemall]

The relevant OOB is "Bulge '44_Alt7_McNamara.oob". I think the others were just earlier versions.

You can tell which one to open by opening up the relevant scenario file with a text editor. It will show you something like this :

20
#16_01s: The Battle of the Bulge_Alt
1944 12 16 6 1 0 1 162
5000 10000 15000 20000
1 0 95 75 0 0 0 0 0 0
1 5 2 0
0
1 3 3 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
Bulge_sub.map
Bulge '44_Alt7_McNamara.oob
Bulge_Alt.pdt
...



John

Thanks a lot John.

[Green]

The relevant OOB is "Bulge '44_Alt7_McNamara.oob". I think the others were just earlier versions.

You can tell which one to open by opening up the relevant scenario file with a text editor. It will show you something like this :

20
#16_01s: The Battle of the Bulge_Alt
1944 12 16 6 1 0 1 162
5000 10000 15000 20000
1 0 95 75 0 0 0 0 0 0
1 5 2 0
0
1 3 3 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0
Bulge_sub.map
Bulge '44_Alt7_McNamara.oob
Bulge_Alt.pdt
...



John

Thanks a lot John.

No problem.

To covert the victory points in the OOB to the values that appear in the victory display you need to divide them by 100 for men and by 10 for vehicles/guns to get the values per man and per vehicle/gun.

For example an infantry unit in the OOB with a VP = 11 means every 100 men lost = 11 points. And if a vehicle unit in the OOB had VP = 20 it means that every vehicle lost = 2 victory points.

John

[agmoss99]

That's great, thanks.

[ComradeP]

As far as I can tell, 3 things determine the VP value of a unit:

-Quality. Each quality level up/down raises/lowers VP cost by 1 point. This is unfortunately rather crude and doesn't accurately reflect the (dis)advantages quality rating gives.

-The various stats of the unit.

-The "flags"/special capabilities of a unit.

Single Use, Low Reliability, Jet Aircraft, Naval Target Only, Night Flying, Deception Unit, Irregular Unit and Demolition Unit don't raise or lower the VP value. That's somewhat curious for some of these abilities considering the (dis)advantages offered, but maybe it is felt that they are too situational. 

Indirect Fire, Mine Clearing, Amphibious, Mountain Unit, Paradrop and Bridge Eng raise the VP value.

As every unit uses the same formula, I don't think there's a way to make a specific nation lose more VP's when taking casualties.

VP's apply to losses and points from removing units from the map in exit hexes. As most scenarios don't feature exit hexes, it's mostly loss points you need to worry about/aim for.

During tests I ran several years ago, the system keeps track of fractional VP's from losses (to use Green's example: 0.11 VP per man lost in that infantry unit), but it doesn't show them. I haven't checked whether that is still the case in the new WDS versions yet.

[Green]

As far as I can tell, 3 things determine the VP value of a unit:

-Quality. Each quality level up/down raises/lowers VP cost by 1 point. This is unfortunately rather crude and doesn't accurately reflect the (dis)advantages quality rating gives.

-The various stats of the unit.

-The "flags"/special capabilities of a unit.

Single Use, Low Reliability, Jet Aircraft, Naval Target Only, Night Flying, Deception Unit, Irregular Unit and Demolition Unit don't raise or lower the VP value. That's somewhat curious for some of these abilities considering the (dis)advantages offered, but maybe it is felt that they are too situational. 

Indirect Fire, Mine Clearing, Amphibious, Mountain Unit, Paradrop and Bridge Eng raise the VP value.

As every unit uses the same formula, I don't think there's a way to make a specific nation lose more VP's when taking casualties.

VP's apply to losses and points from removing units from the map in exit hexes. As most scenarios don't feature exit hexes, it's mostly loss points you need to worry about/aim for.

During tests I ran several years ago, the system keeps track of fractional VP's from losses (to use Green's example: 0.11 VP per man lost in that infantry unit), but it doesn't show them. I haven't checked whether that is still the case in the new WDS versions yet.

Everything you say is correct. The calculation is based on the three things you mention.

The formula is crude, particularly in terms of reflecting Quality but it does provides a rough approximation of a units worth.

John