France '40 4.00 Map Errors

[philm]

Here are some map errors I observed recently in the 4.00 version of France 40 (coordinates are full campaign map).

Hopefully the new version will pick these up but if not here they are:

256,192
269,190
292,250
287,242
329,250

all are either missing bridges, streams and/or the bridge is on the wrong side of the hex.

[jonnymacbrown]

Here are some map errors I observed recently in the 4.00 version of France 40 (coordinates are full campaign map).

Hopefully the new version will pick these up but if not here they are:

256,192
269,190
292,250
287,242
329,250

all are either missing bridges, streams and/or the bridge is on the wrong side of the hex.

Looking Now:
256-192 no problems
269-190 the heavy bridge is on the wrong side of the hex; should be over the stream
292-250 unnecessary heavy bridge transverses nothing
287-242  no problems
329-250  no problems
Thanks for pointing this out. The game designers seem intent on making the French Army as weak as possible so they may no longer be interested in map questions. jonny

[Mike Prucha]

Here are some map errors I observed recently in the 4.00 version of France 40 (coordinates are full campaign map).

Hopefully the new version will pick these up but if not here they are:

256,192
269,190
292,250
287,242
329,250

all are either missing bridges, streams and/or the bridge is on the wrong side of the hex.

Hi Philm,

Thank you. We will cross check these with the current version of the map (to be released in October, if all goes according to plan) and make sure that they are corrected.

-Mike Prucha

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

292, 250 hex looks like it is missing the stream, not wrong bridge placement.

[Mike Prucha]

Looking Now:
256-192 no problems
269-190 the heavy bridge is on the wrong side of the hex; should be over the stream
292-250 unnecessary heavy bridge transverses nothing
287-242  no problems
329-250  no problems
Thanks for pointing this out. The game designers seem intent on making the French Army as weak as possible so they may no longer be interested in map questions. jonny

Hi Johnny,

Thank you for sharing your concerns.

We are intent on trying to represent the campaign as authentically as possible within the constraints of the game engine. To this end we are very concerned about balance and trying to ensure that the various units perform similarly to their historic counterparts. The coming update will include several changes to morale values. The only French units whose morale has been lowered are tank units. French armor had built in disadvantages - the "overburdened commander," lack of radios, inefficient sights on the SOMUA, etc. These factors played a huge role in that French tanks could not coordinate in the way that the Panzers could and in tank vs tank action partly nullified whatever advantages the French tanks may have had in armor and firepower. None of this is represented in the unit values themselves which only account for more tangible factors like armor and firepower.  There also many other changes to the OOB and scenarios - many French infantry and some artillery and cavalry regiments have increased morale, there are larger unit sizes to consistently account for the battalion weapons companies which especially favor the French (and Belgians), additional French units not previously represented, and additional fortifications. The reduction of French tank morale has made some scenarios (especially Hannut & Dinant) more competitive and the Germans now have a more realistic chance to accomplish what they historically did, but given all of the changes I do not see the French Army as a whole much weaker in the coming version than it was before, if at all. Certainly what we have done cannot in any way be described as "making the French Army as weak as possible." 

The mega update in October will not likely be the last time we revisit France '40, and certainly if, as we continue to study results on the Blitz, receive feedback  from players, and continue to the play the scenarios ourselves, we may re-assess and make further changes, perhaps putting some morale values back to what they were. You are certainly welcome to use your OOB editor to change morale value as you see fit in your copy of the game.

-Mike P

[Xerxes77]

I have a (probably) silly question. Are all roads going through a stream supposed to have a bridge?

In the absence of a bridge, a unit in travel mode trying to cross a stream via a road must spend the stream hexside cost + the road cost. It's costly, but doable for most units... so I wonder why a bridge-less crossing is considered to be a map error?

[Strela]

I have a (probably) silly question. Are all roads going through a stream supposed to have a bridge?

In the absence of a bridge, a unit in travel mode trying to cross a stream via a road must spend the stream hexside cost + the road cost. It's costly, but doable for most units... so I wonder why a bridge-less crossing is considered to be a map error?

I can’t comment on the France ‘40 map, but it is intentional in many cases not to have many bridged streams in the Eastern Front maps.

[jonnymacbrown]

[quote pid="451145" dateline="1663333256"]
[quote pid="451129" dateline="1663256670"]

Thanks for pointing this out. The game designers seem intent on making the French Army as weak as possible so they may no longer be interested in map questions. jonny
[/quote]
Hi Johnny,

Thank you for sharing your concerns.

We are intent on trying to represent the campaign as authentically as possible within the constraints of the game engine. To this end we are very concerned about balance and trying to ensure that the various units perform similarly to their historic counterparts. The coming update will include several changes to morale values. The only French units whose morale has been lowered are tank units. French armor had built in disadvantages - the "overburdened commander," lack of radios, inefficient sights on the SOMUA, etc. These factors played a huge role in that French tanks could not coordinate in the way that the Panzers could and in tank vs tank action partly nullified whatever advantages the French tanks may have had in armor and firepower. None of this is represented in the unit values themselves which only account for more tangible factors like armor and firepower.  There also many other changes to the OOB and scenarios - many French infantry and some artillery and cavalry regiments have increased morale, there are larger unit sizes to consistently account for the battalion weapons companies which especially favor the French (and Belgians), additional French units not previously represented, and additional fortifications. The reduction of French tank morale has made some scenarios (especially Hannut & Dinant) more competitive and the Germans now have a more realistic chance to accomplish what they historically did, but given all of the changes I do not see the French Army as a whole much weaker in the coming version than it was before, if at all. Certainly what we have done cannot in any way be described as "making the French Army as weak as possible." 

The mega update in October will not likely be the last time we revisit France '40, and certainly if, as we continue to study results on the Blitz, receive feedback  from players, and continue to the play the scenarios ourselves, we may re-assess and make further changes, perhaps putting some morale values back to what they were. You are certainly welcome to use your OOB editor to change morale value as you see fit in your copy of the game.

-Mike P
[/quote]
Mike. I know how much work you have put into this game and playing the campaign right now I know it's a great game. My only worry is that by making the French tank divisions "D" instead of "C" the Allied players just don't have any good units and when that happens the game just isn't any fun. The Dutch Army is all D and E rated except for a few C's. The Belgian Army is pretty much all D and E except for the Ardennes cyclists. Now all (and practically the only) good units in the French Army will be rated D. The German armor is all A. French armor rated D can't stand up to slugging it out with A rated panzers; they are gonna lose and quickly be disordered and decimated. The only thing the French have is artillery and if you play standard arty rules that allow the German player to stack a mile high with infantry and armor with no density penalty, the French have no chance, and I mean zero. The campaign is 259 turns and it's gonna take at least 100-150 turns to figure that out and won't won't be any fun at all for the French player. I hope it all works out because the map and oob are really outstanding. jonny

[Mike Prucha]

[quote pid="451129" dateline="1663256670"]
Mike. I know how much work you have put into this game and playing the campaign right now I know it's a great game. My only worry is that by making the French tank divisions "D" instead of "C" the Allied players just don't have any good units and when that happens the game just isn't any fun. The Dutch Army is all D and E rated except for a few C's. The Belgian Army is pretty much all D and E except for the Ardennes cyclists. Now all (and practically the only) good units in the French Army will be rated D. The German armor is all A. French armor rated D can't stand up to slugging it out with A rated panzers; they are gonna lose and quickly be disordered and decimated. The only thing the French have is artillery and if you play standard arty rules that allow the German player to stack a mile high with infantry and armor with no density penalty, the French have no chance, and I mean zero. The campaign is 259 turns and it's gonna take at least 100-150 turns to figure that out and won't won't be any fun at all for the French player. I hope it all works out because the map and oob are really outstanding. jonny
[/quote]


Hi Johnny,

Thanks again for your feedback. I am glad you enjoy the OOB and the map (I think these will be even better in the coming update!) and I do appreciate your concerns and critiques.

A few thoughts:

1. The German Panzers are not and never have been "all A." This has not been the case in any iteration of the F40 Gold OOB  and will not be with the update. 7 out of 32 Panzer battalions are Quality A - just those of 1st & 7th Panzer. Furthermore, French tanks still have very high (relative to the era) defense values and German Panzers still have very low HA values, so it is not as though the German tanks have a total advantage - there's an awful lot of fire pulses that provide "No effect."

2. As mentioned in the preview a few months ago, there are many alterations in morale ratings beyond changing tank ratings. In total, the French will have more than 100 battalions rated Quality B. There are other changes that favor the allies as well - fortification bonuses are higher (and consistent with other west front titles), infantry units (especially French and Belgian) are much larger and able to absorb more casualties, etc. So there are advantages the French can leverage, at least locally. Yes, when spread thinly, the French will tend to collapse. When fighting on favorable terrain and densely packed according to French doctrine, the French infantry can be very difficult to displace, even at lower morale values. 

3. French armor did in fact suffer catastrophic losses in Fall Gelb. By the end of May the entirety of the GA 1's armor had been reduced the strength of less than 1 battalion. Getting precise figures for any point in the middle of campaign is difficult as war diaries are incomplete, etc., but at 150 turns in (roughly May 24th) GA 1's armor force would have been would have been well under 50% strength. 9th Army's tank battalions were entirely eliminated between May 13th-17th (with most being destroyed between the 14th & 15th), 1st DCR lost nearly 100% of its tank strength in just a few hours on May 15th, and the remaining dozen or so tanks were destroyed or abandoned in within a few days after. 2nd DCR was likewise almost entirely destroyed between May 15th-18th (though it was rebuilt with new units), etc., etc.. If the French tank force is not holding up well in the campaign, to me that seem to be within the realm of realism. 

4. I do not like the Alternative Indirect Fire resolution. Losses (especially German) already tend to be inflated relative to history and this rule would inflate them further.

5. The OOB editor is provided for your use. The morale ratings, etc. are my take but do not need to be considered definitive or binding. You are always welcome to change the values and morale ratings however you see fit and can make the French army as powerful as you would like. 

-Mike Prucha

[Mike Prucha]

I have a (probably) silly question. Are all roads going through a stream supposed to have a bridge?

In the absence of a bridge, a unit in travel mode trying to cross a stream via a road must spend the stream hexside cost + the road cost. It's costly, but doable for most units... so I wonder why a bridge-less crossing is considered to be a map error?

Hi,

We do you want all stream crossings to have bridges in the F40 map. Many stream crossings had no bridges in the original map, especially the portions of the map taken from F14. Unfortunately are map editor does have a function to search for stream crossings that are missing bridges (as it does for rivers), so it is sometimes difficult to spot stream crossings without bridges. We have corrected several dozen of these, but I am sure there will still probably be a few even after the update...

-Mike Prucha