Terrain effects on assault

[Liebchen]

For the life of me, I cannot parse this sentence out:

• If any of the attacking units consist of vehicles, then the terrain modifier of the defending hex is applied to the attacker’s assault value. Note: this modifier applies to motorized and mechanized infantry when they are in Travel Mode, but not when they are Deployed.
  

Any help?

[Steel God]

For the life of me, I cannot parse this sentence out:

• If any of the attacking units consist of vehicles, then the terrain modifier of the defending hex is applied to the attacker’s assault value. Note: this modifier applies to motorized and mechanized infantry when they are in Travel Mode, but not when they are Deployed.
  

Any help?

If you assault a hex with vehicles or infantry in T mode, then the protection value of the defending hex (e.g. village -30%) is applied to your assault value ( i.e. in this example -30%).

The idea here can be summarized as assaulting into close terrain is the job for infantry

[Liebchen]

For the life of me, I cannot parse this sentence out:

• If any of the attacking units consist of vehicles, then the terrain modifier of the defending hex is applied to the attacker’s assault value. Note: this modifier applies to motorized and mechanized infantry when they are in Travel Mode, but not when they are Deployed.
  

Any help?

If you assault a hex with vehicles or infantry in T mode, then the protection value of the defending hex (e.g. village -30%) is applied to your assault value ( i.e. in this example -30%).

The idea here can be summarized as assaulting into close terrain is the job for infantry

This part, in particular:

• If any of the attacking units consist of vehicles, then the terrain modifier of the defending hex is applied to the attacker’s assault value.
  

I mean, the terrain modifiers apply even if there are no vehicles, right?

[Ricky B]

For the life of me, I cannot parse this sentence out:

• If any of the attacking units consist of vehicles, then the terrain modifier of the defending hex is applied to the attacker’s assault value. Note: this modifier applies to motorized and mechanized infantry when they are in Travel Mode, but not when they are Deployed.
  

Any help?

If you assault a hex with vehicles or infantry in T mode, then the protection value of the defending hex (e.g. village -30%) is applied to your assault value ( i.e. in this example -30%).

The idea here can be summarized as assaulting into close terrain is the job for infantry

This part, in particular:

• If any of the attacking units consist of vehicles, then the terrain modifier of the defending hex is applied to the attacker’s assault value.
  

I mean, the terrain modifiers apply even if there are no vehicles, right?

From the rules you are already quoting, the only terrain mods applied are hex side and the one you noted:

Terrain Modifiers in an Assault
• The maximum hex side modifier of all hex sides between attacking units and the defending units, is used to modify the attackers assault value.
• If any of the attacking units consist of vehicles, then the terrain modifier of the defending hex is applied to the attacker’s assault value. Note: this modifier applies to motorized and mechanized infantry when they are in Travel Mode, but not when they are Deployed.

So based on that, it seems like terrain mods for the hex itself are not applied except against vehicles/T mode, agreed? I tried to test it but not sure what I did is valid as the calcs don't show all modifiers. But when I tested assaulting into a forest versus clear, the modifiers shown were the same so I do believe this confirms no terrain mods apply except as noted.

[Steel God]

Using only the "Hex Side" modifier in an assault calculation is consistent with other Tiller games (e.g.  Civil War).  The hex modifier is used for Direct and Indirect fire calculations.  I have not checked all game systems to see if that is the way it is everywhere.

[smurf309]

Those darn modifiers still confuse me:)

[Liebchen]

For the life of me, I cannot parse this sentence out:

• If any of the attacking units consist of vehicles, then the terrain modifier of the defending hex is applied to the attacker’s assault value. Note: this modifier applies to motorized and mechanized infantry when they are in Travel Mode, but not when they are Deployed.
  

Any help?

If you assault a hex with vehicles or infantry in T mode, then the protection value of the defending hex (e.g. village -30%) is applied to your assault value ( i.e. in this example -30%).

The idea here can be summarized as assaulting into close terrain is the job for infantry

This part, in particular:

• If any of the attacking units consist of vehicles, then the terrain modifier of the defending hex is applied to the attacker’s assault value.
  

I mean, the terrain modifiers apply even if there are no vehicles, right?

From the rules you are already quoting, the only terrain mods applied are hex side and the one you noted:

Terrain Modifiers in an Assault
• The maximum hex side modifier of all hex sides between attacking units and the defending units, is used to modify the attackers assault value.
• If any of the attacking units consist of vehicles, then the terrain modifier of the defending hex is applied to the attacker’s assault value. Note: this modifier applies to motorized and mechanized infantry when they are in Travel Mode, but not when they are Deployed.

So based on that, it seems like terrain mods for the hex itself are not applied except against vehicles/T mode, agreed? I tried to test it but not sure what I did is valid as the calcs don't show all modifiers. But when I tested assaulting into a forest versus clear, the modifiers shown were the same so I do believe this confirms no terrain mods apply except as noted.

I appreciate your effort, and you may be right, but the rule says "the terrain modifier of the defending hex" not the hex side.

Besides, I can think of no logical reason why deployed units vehicular units would not be affected by a hex side whereas a vehicular unit in column formation would be. They would, after all, be crossing the same hex side.

Also, why differentiate between vehicles and infantry in the first place?

This rule really needs some clarification. Is anyone close to JT available to interpret what he may have meant?

[Ricky B]

For the life of me, I cannot parse this sentence out:

• If any of the attacking units consist of vehicles, then the terrain modifier of the defending hex is applied to the attacker’s assault value. Note: this modifier applies to motorized and mechanized infantry when they are in Travel Mode, but not when they are Deployed.
  

Any help?

If you assault a hex with vehicles or infantry in T mode, then the protection value of the defending hex (e.g. village -30%) is applied to your assault value ( i.e. in this example -30%).

The idea here can be summarized as assaulting into close terrain is the job for infantry

This part, in particular:

• If any of the attacking units consist of vehicles, then the terrain modifier of the defending hex is applied to the attacker’s assault value.
  

I mean, the terrain modifiers apply even if there are no vehicles, right?

From the rules you are already quoting, the only terrain mods applied are hex side and the one you noted:

Terrain Modifiers in an Assault
• The maximum hex side modifier of all hex sides between attacking units and the defending units, is used to modify the attackers assault value.
• If any of the attacking units consist of vehicles, then the terrain modifier of the defending hex is applied to the attacker’s assault value. Note: this modifier applies to motorized and mechanized infantry when they are in Travel Mode, but not when they are Deployed.

So based on that, it seems like terrain mods for the hex itself are not applied except against vehicles/T mode, agreed? I tried to test it but not sure what I did is valid as the calcs don't show all modifiers. But when I tested assaulting into a forest versus clear, the modifiers shown were the same so I do believe this confirms no terrain mods apply except as noted.

I appreciate your effort, and you may be right, but the rule says "the terrain modifier of the defending hex" not the hex side.

Besides, I can think of no logical reason why deployed units vehicular units would not be affected by a hex side whereas a vehicular unit in column formation would be. They would, after all, be crossing the same hex side.

Also, why differentiate between vehicles and infantry in the first place?

This rule really needs some clarification. Is anyone close to JT available to interpret what he may have meant?

Since I don't think we have a medium to help, and with various updates over the years this very possibly is changed from anything JT wrote, the best we can do is read the rules and run tests.

I don't understand your emphasis on the rule stating hex versus hex side for the second part of the rule? Hex side mods apply in all cases, it would seem, with or without vehicles, which matches your comment - I wasn't trying to imply the hex side piece didn't apply in some cases as you didn't raise it and the rule seems clear that hex side mods will always apply. I just pointed out there is no indication of other rules besides the two of them in response to your comment of terrain mods applying even without vehicles. 

For hex terrain mods, the written rule at least indicates it only applies when vehicles are involved. I simply don't see anything indicating "terrain modifiers apply even if there are no vehicles" based on the written rules or my test scenario, where the mods for infantry assaulting clear and forest were the same (understanding there could be additional mods not shown, but I think the terrain mods would be considered if they applied?).

The difference between vehicles and infantry in assault is pretty clear to me, from a close up fight perspective. Men can take advantage of the terrain but still have decent view of the defenders, where vehicles including men mounted in trucks/HTs/APCs have more limited visiblity/firing opportunities than dismounted men and thus are not able to target the enemy as well. This is reducing the attacker's assault value and it strikes me as being this impact of vehicles being more limited when the defensive terrain is tighter, whether due to overall vision, impossibility of vehicles moving through all of say a forest hex, or similar issue.

Anyway, I understand from your response you want a more official answer so somebody may provide it, or may not, but this is my attempt to provide some sort of input at least.