Engineers in Assaults

[Steel God]

Okay....not too long ago I made a statement on the WDS Boards which turned out to be wrong....and if you had asked me to bet any amount of money on it prior I would have taken the wager without hesitation.  My statement was that Engineers when added to an assault attack (the reference was for FWWC but I believed it would apply to PzC and/or MC as well) would have the effect of lowering casualties for the attacker and therefore increasing the chances of winning the assaults.  I believed this so strongly that it effected the way I played, I husbanded my engineers and saved them for critical assaults because of this belief.  Now, I don't mind being wrong and/or corrected, but this idea is so ingrained in me I'd love to understand why I thought it was so.  Did I dream this up out of thin air, or has anyone else played a game (WDS or other) where Engineers provided that sort of assistance I'm thinking of?  I'd blame advancing age and senility if I haven't believed this for years or decades.

[Dog Soldier]

IIRC from the User Manual, "However, in an assault there are two combat results calculations that are performed simultaneously."
That said, I would refer to the assault values of engineers versus infantry and other units you might consider in an assault where you could add the engineers.  Typically, these assault values range from 20% to upwards of 50% increases over just regular infantry.
I also suspect, your careful use of engineers in assaults meant the defending units were not only disrupted in most all cases but also at least yellow fatigue.  While the attacker cannot see the fatigue value of the enemy units, it can be estimated by the fire attacks placed on the target hex enemy units prior to the assault.  This estimate is a  result of experience, so it it is not always correct.
These factors combined can certainly reduce the assaulting unit casualties.

A simple example I would suggest is playing the Soviet forces and assaulting an Axis held hex with only one Soviet infantry unit.  You might well take the hex, at a high cost to your assaulting infantry.  However, there are ways for playing the Soviets to mitigate such losses.  As always, it just depends on the situation.  Time pressure to take a key position or VP hex, and the player's appetite for risk.

Dog Soldier

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

The only time I can remember were the Germans at Stalingrad when the few Assault Engineer Bns were brought in. Most other times I can remember were Infantry in the assault and Engineers performing other tasks while the enemy was distracted. Personally, I don't think they should have more assault value than the Infantry. Otherwise, why not just train all of them to be Engineers?

[5 Leichte Div]

Okay....not too long ago I made a statement on the WDS Boards which turned out to be wrong....and if you had asked me to bet any amount of money on it prior I would have taken the wager without hesitation.  My statement was that Engineers when added to an assault attack (the reference was for FWWC but I believed it would apply to PzC and/or MC as well) would have the effect of lowering casualties for the attacker and therefore increasing the chances of winning the assaults.  I believed this so strongly that it effected the way I played, I husbanded my engineers and saved them for critical assaults because of this belief.  Now, I don't mind being wrong and/or corrected, but this idea is so ingrained in me I'd love to understand why I thought it was so.  Did I dream this up out of thin air, or has anyone else played a game (WDS or other) where Engineers provided that sort of assistance I'm thinking of?  I'd blame advancing age and senility if I haven't believed this for years or decades.

Hello, All

Mr. Steel God will have some of company with the aging gamers here.
Count me as deficient at times - bad habits.
Engineer combat chops - eh - I think they just help out the odds.
I don't think that they reduce your losses.
Shortening the assault effort # of times could be helpful.
No ?

TS

[Ricky B]

Okay....not too long ago I made a statement on the WDS Boards which turned out to be wrong....and if you had asked me to bet any amount of money on it prior I would have taken the wager without hesitation.  My statement was that Engineers when added to an assault attack (the reference was for FWWC but I believed it would apply to PzC and/or MC as well) would have the effect of lowering casualties for the attacker and therefore increasing the chances of winning the assaults.  I believed this so strongly that it effected the way I played, I husbanded my engineers and saved them for critical assaults because of this belief.  Now, I don't mind being wrong and/or corrected, but this idea is so ingrained in me I'd love to understand why I thought it was so.  Did I dream this up out of thin air, or has anyone else played a game (WDS or other) where Engineers provided that sort of assistance I'm thinking of?  I'd blame advancing age and senility if I haven't believed this for years or decades.

Paul, being a bit older although not much, and suffering the same as you say, I wonder about some of the things I remember about the games, going back 20+ years for some things I swear I remember  .

But I did remember something similar to what you are thinking. And today I started tying it to Kursk. So I looked at its old initial changes log and Kursk introduced demolition units to the games. I believe that is what you are thinking of - it doesn't reduce losses for the attacker, but instead increases defensive losses by reducing the defensive benefit. From the demolition rule, which has more:

When Demolition Units participate in an assault attack, the defense value bonus that the defending units would receive from Bunkers and Pillboxes is cut in half for that assault.

So I would say your memory served you well, just missing a small nuance is all, but overall the impact on play is the same but with a focus on demolition units rather than general engineers. And maybe this is not what you are thinking of in the dim recesses, but I am fairly positive it is for me, just that I totally forgot the details.

[Steel God]

Rick, I actually had not remembered the demolition units, but had traced it back (because you know if something is bothering me I’m gonna bull dog it) to the way Engineers work in the Strategic War series which is very much how you outline demo units working in PzC.  I’m comforted to know I didn’t create the idea out of thin air.