When should Germany have surrendered?

[Periander]

Periander;

The scuttling of the german fleet at Scapa Flow happened AFTER the new conditions (the german 'Diktat' seems more apporiate to them) had been decided upon and presented to the germans. The scuttling was a reaction to and not a cause of the terms of Versailles. It did severely weaken the postion of the german delegation though to try and get even a few very minor points amended.

Yes, quite true in a public sense, however (and I'll have to have a root around to find the references) there is more than a suggestion that Llyod-George was going to give a significant part of the fleet back to Germany and was certainly not going to enforce all the treaty conditions.

(Should also be noted that although the treaty was signed the week after the scuttling it wasn't ratified until 1920 ... plenty of time for a bit more horse trading and back door diplomacy).

There was certainly a feeling in some quaters that sacrificing Germany in the way it was would rebound on the other major powers in particular the UK. Allowing Germany to remain "armed" would provide a bulwark against French expansion abroad ... that is if the German's still had guns then the French would have to keep troops at home and stop messing around in the colonies ... no more repeats of Fashoda for instance.

Likewise allowing Germany to keep its colonies would keep the presure of the UK colonies ... at least to a certain extent.

The European's don't call us "Perfidious Albion" for nothing.