CMBB v CMAK

[Mad Russian]

Well then...a couple of things right off...

Steven Zaloga is not the best available source for Russian armor. Ask him personally, if possible for such names as Michail Svirin or Baryatinsky and then post his comments here. Figures, that I was stating, are from books, written by people, tank engineers, working in Russian archives more frequently, than Zaloga.

I would guess that you have no idea how much time Mr. Zaloga spent in the Russian archives. No, I don't know him. No, I can't ask him anything.

His book, "Soviet Tanks and Combat Vehicles of World War Two" is considered the bible of Soviet combat vehicles in WWII. In the back he lists 276 sources about 60% of which are from some form of Soviet source.

I never heard of the two men you list.

There is only ONE issue I have in this thread. The fact that T-34's and KV-1's early on in the war had a shortage of AP ammo. I can make all the preconceived mistakes that you want to give me credit for. However, you cannot get around the fact, that if they were fully operational with their full combat loads of AP rounds, Soviet tanks would have killed more German tanks.

Period.

All of the other "issues" you bring up mean nothing. Tank crew quality, optics, ability to hit the enemy tanks, lack of spare parts, the lunar brightness on any given night....none of that matters. What matters is that when a German tank was hit with a round from a T-34 it would have been more effective if it was an AP round than an HE one.

You wanted to talk German tank superiority. We have. Your position that the Germans were far superior in tanks was bunk and I think I proved it.
The German tanks were very good at killing Russian tanks in small groups, when they were broken down or surrounded and out of supply. They were not so good at killing Soviet tanks that were actually fighting. I showed that too.

I have nine books on the T-34. So yes, I know an awful lot about T-34's.
I know they were hard to drive. I know their crews were inexperienced and that they were missing spare parts. I also know they were short of AP ammo during the first months of the war.

I also know alot about the German Panzers and their deployment. I know that the Panther was a design that was specifically made to counter the T-34 threat and was not a progression tank. At one time in 1941 the Germans had stopped making tanks altogether. They saw no need for a larger tank. The war they thought was over. Then they met the T-34 in ever increasing numbers.

You wanted specifics and I gave them to you. From both the German and the Soviet sides. You talked about post war fairy tales, and the only one I've seen is quoted is, that the Germans were supermen, with the best equipment on earth. That they were winning every fight with ease. That the Soviets only had outdated equipment and their tactics were worthless. I quoted you instances, where, when they were allowed to fight with the tactics they were trained in, they did quite well. It was the Germans that said so not something I made up. It was in fact Guderian. Yes, I know he isn't your favorite author. But when he's talking about how well the Soviets were fighting you have to believe that there might be some truth to that...

Of course the 37mm ATG was capable of knocking out obsolete Soviet tanks. It did so well in fact, it earned the knickname of "Door Knocker", when it tried to fight T-34's.

Do you know how many tanks the Luftwaffe killed? I don't. I don't really care. That's not the issue here. I don't quote tank kill numbers but talk about the disruption of combat formations. That is definately not the same thing.

You quote the production figures for T-60 and T-70's for 2 years and that figure barely matches the 1942 year production alone for the T-34. How does that make them the workhorses for the Red Army?

I get my universal rules for T-34 deployments from the Red Army Shats. The TO&E's issued by the Red Army during the war. I can give you the TO&E strengths for every tank brigade during the war. Every other Soviet tank formation as well as far as that goes.

Katukov became the commander of the 4th Tank Brigade 29 August 1941. He took the 4th Tank Brigade into action against the 4th Panzer Division at Mstensk. Yes, I know that the actual strength of the tank brigades, at times, was below the TO&E strength.

A TO&E is the list of equipment that a unit is authorized to have assigned to it. Maybe I am missing you with that abbreviation.

Either way, I'm not going to argue with you. I have posted the strengths of both the Soviet and German tank forces. I have shown that tank guns were increased in size, and velocity, in the absolute desire to increase their tank killing abilities. You dismiss out of hand any notion that the Soviets had any idea of what they were doing, or that they had any equipment worthy of being called tanks. While the German armor seems to have been invincible and their tactics flawless.

If that's what you want to believe be my guest.

Good Hunting.

MR