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CMBB v CMAK
07-17-2007, 07:53 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-17-2007, 08:32 AM by Nikita.)
#70
RE: CMBB v CMAK
Well, finally i found something, unfortunately not in English or German, but I'll continue digging.

Panther:
The question of change of PzIII and PzIV for a new universal tank model was raised back in 1939. German Id of project was VK 20.01. later it was changed, but I think you might be able to trace it, if needed.
I can make a detailed write up of histry of project development, but I think it would be better to concentrate on T-34 related issues.

Surely, engineers were closely co-operating with the military personell and formed up a specialised commision, which visited the front, where Guderian was present and made his statements (Oct. 18, 1941). I have all his memo on subject, essence was the following:
- high losses due to marches;
- thicker armor and better armament of new Russian tanks
- better mobility and speed of Russian tanks (which I highly doubt, because Russian Kubinka testers told directly the opposite)
- insufficient mobility of German armor in Russian conditions.
- poor spotting capacity of Russian tanks and difficulties to co-ordinate actions of more, than 10 tanks at a time (result of absence of commander's cupola and poor visibility)

His suggestions to commisions as for tanks to be produced in the future:
(1) upgrade maingun of existing tank models before rearmament to new tanks
(2) new tank shall have thicker armor to withstand Russian AT guns (both tank and field ones)
(3) improved armament
(4) improved hp/ton ratio
(5) improved mobility

Benefits of slopped armor were noted separately, but were not in the list of necessary requirements of military.

At the last meeting on Nov. 21, 1941, Guderian stated priorities as follows:
- improve armament
- improve tactical mobility
- improve armor

Accordingly, engineers started to reconsider existing project towards increase of armor and gun.
Hitler personally worked closely with the project, and was focusing engineers on armament and penetration capacity to withstand future Allied designs. F.e. he personally considered frontal armor of 80mm being not enough and requested to thick it up to 100mm, which is overkill for any Soviet tank or anti-tank gun at a time. This was stated by him on July 4, 1942.

Generally:
Germans already considered rearmament of their panzer divisions and unification of tank design. Since they met Allied tanks of improved armor and maingun, and considered, that tanks may become heavier and better armored in the future, they changed their projects accordingly, so to say to jump ahead of time, i.e. have superiority over both existing Allied tanks, and future designs.
But none of the projects in panther development history was specifically designed against T-34. As I stated previously, it was a pre-planned upgrade, revised according to findings at the front towards increase of its combat qualities. But this increase, introduction of Panther maingun, thick slopped armor was not direct result of T-34. Main conserns were related to the future possible trends in Allied tank building.

As I stated, the only feature, "copied from T-34", was introduction of slopped armor, which was rather unusual engineering decision for German hull design.

French were applying idea of slopped armor at several tanks, ex. FCM-36
http://www.chars-francais.net/images/arc...cm_006.jpg
Somua S-35
http://www.chars-francais.net/images/arc..._coupe.jpg
http://www.chars-francais.net/images/arc...350043.jpg

As for matilda, it is a separate topic and I suggest to froze discussion on it for the moment to prevent flooding. I doubt you are right about infantry support tank concept (how English people understood it when Matilda was under development), though.
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Messages In This Thread
CMBB v CMAK - by The Coil - 07-03-2007, 04:29 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Colonel Talvela - 07-03-2007, 04:49 AM
RE:��CMBB v CMAK - by The Coil - 07-03-2007, 01:19 PM
RE: ��CMBB v CMAK - by Copper - 07-03-2007, 03:12 PM
RE:����CMBB v CMAK - by The Coil - 07-04-2007, 02:32 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-08-2007, 01:17 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mike Abberton - 07-03-2007, 04:59 AM
RE:��CMBB v CMAK - by Colonel Talvela - 07-03-2007, 06:08 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by bluehand - 07-03-2007, 06:05 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mike Abberton - 07-03-2007, 06:39 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by MGK(FGM) - 07-03-2007, 06:54 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mike Abberton - 07-03-2007, 11:24 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by MGK(FGM) - 07-03-2007, 11:44 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mike Abberton - 07-04-2007, 01:32 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by MGK(FGM) - 07-04-2007, 02:11 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Grumlin - 07-04-2007, 06:49 PM
RE:��CMBB v CMAK - by The Coil - 07-05-2007, 04:55 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by The Coil - 07-05-2007, 09:47 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Nikita - 07-12-2007, 06:10 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-12-2007, 12:42 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Nikita - 07-12-2007, 04:28 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-12-2007, 04:57 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Nikita - 07-13-2007, 05:17 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-14-2007, 10:44 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Ratzki - 07-13-2007, 06:00 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-14-2007, 10:52 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by bluehand - 07-14-2007, 05:20 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Nikita - 07-14-2007, 06:43 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-14-2007, 11:01 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-14-2007, 11:04 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Nikita - 07-14-2007, 09:04 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-15-2007, 12:07 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by McIvan - 07-15-2007, 08:50 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-16-2007, 01:25 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-14-2007, 11:58 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-15-2007, 12:28 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Nikita - 07-15-2007, 07:43 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-15-2007, 01:58 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by McIvan - 07-15-2007, 09:11 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-16-2007, 01:56 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Von Earlmann - 07-15-2007, 08:50 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-15-2007, 01:36 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-15-2007, 09:24 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-15-2007, 09:50 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-15-2007, 12:39 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-15-2007, 01:01 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by McIvan - 07-15-2007, 09:06 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-16-2007, 01:52 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-15-2007, 01:32 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-15-2007, 01:46 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Nikita - 07-15-2007, 06:01 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-15-2007, 07:17 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Risnervich - 07-15-2007, 08:26 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Tanker - 07-16-2007, 01:20 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by kineas - 07-16-2007, 02:12 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-16-2007, 06:07 AM
RE:�� CMBB v CMAK - by McIvan - 07-16-2007, 07:12 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-16-2007, 07:37 AM
RE:���� CMBB v CMAK - by McIvan - 07-16-2007, 09:30 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-17-2007, 03:42 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Nikita - 07-16-2007, 03:07 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-16-2007, 06:35 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-16-2007, 07:11 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Nikita - 07-16-2007, 07:57 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-16-2007, 08:28 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Nikita - 07-16-2007, 03:46 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-16-2007, 10:31 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Chipmunk - 07-16-2007, 10:59 PM
RE:�� CMBB v CMAK - by Mike Abberton - 07-17-2007, 04:11 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Nikita - 07-17-2007, 07:53 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-17-2007, 09:55 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Nikita - 07-17-2007, 08:05 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-17-2007, 09:58 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-17-2007, 11:01 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Nikita - 07-17-2007, 02:41 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-17-2007, 03:19 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by McIvan - 07-17-2007, 06:07 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-17-2007, 10:26 PM
RE:���� CMBB v CMAK - by McIvan - 07-18-2007, 06:51 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by PoorOldSpike - 07-17-2007, 03:56 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by PoorOldSpike - 07-17-2007, 04:13 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by PoorOldSpike - 07-17-2007, 04:18 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-17-2007, 10:35 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by PoorOldSpike - 07-18-2007, 01:11 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Nikita - 07-18-2007, 01:38 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-18-2007, 03:03 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by PoorOldSpike - 07-18-2007, 02:52 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Copper - 07-18-2007, 04:34 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Nikita - 07-18-2007, 06:25 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-18-2007, 11:25 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by The Coil - 07-24-2007, 06:29 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-24-2007, 11:40 AM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by McIvan - 07-24-2007, 12:04 PM
RE: CMBB v CMAK - by Mad Russian - 07-25-2007, 02:26 PM

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