Were the Germans really that good?

[Steel God]

As there are so many sweeping statements, ignorance, school-boy history and generalisations in this thread, I just can't resist putting my 2d in... what a great thread.. I always love this argument.... here's my take

Aye, tis that. :)

On the Original question:

Initially, the Germans were unstoppable, history proves that. Their tactics, use of combined arms and overwhelming confidence gave them that, don't forget, they were also an angry nation who believed, quite rightly, that they had been shafted after the Great War and had some serious scores to settle. They were the first modern mechanised Army and it showed. Britain and especially France, were let down by extremely poor leadership and a belief that no country could hope to conquer a modern Europe. Russia bought some time with their pact, but they knew what was coming and tried to be as ready as they could. Germany having a standing army of 3 million also helped... Britain had about 300,000.

Agree for the most part, except that Germany had a modern mechanized army. At no time in the war did the Germany Army achieve truly mechanized status. Only the US Army came close in 44/45. The Germans never had more than a small percentage of it's army mechanized, most of the army was foot and horse drawn, just like their Dads were in WWI.\

The middle part of the war, The Germans realise that they are not actually superior men and the Russian is not the unter-mensch, there is mutual respect, and it's going to come down to industry, supplies and how many Tanks, Planes, Ships and trained men you can get into the field in the right places... the Allies have caught up...
By the end, old men and boys are being trained up, they have limited supplies and the allies will not allow them to sue for peace, they are fighting for their homeland and their families and pride, the Russians are fighting with anger, the the Brits and Yanks just want to get the job done and not die trying... whereas the Germans know they are going to die... it makes you fight harder, no? I know an old German soldier and asked him why the Germans often fought to the last man and appeared to have super-human fanaticism... it wasn't Nazi-ism or patriotism, it was the knowledge that if they failed or retreated in the face of the enemy, they would be shot...that's from the horses mouth.

Agree here as well. But it just explains why, it doesn't dispute the fact.

The British Army... lets get this right, the British Army was not made up from the English, it was not an English or British Army, it was a British Commonwealth Army made up from troops from all over the world. To say one group was tougher or braver than another is insulting to those who fought and died. ANZACs Canadians, Indians, Africans, Scots, Welsh, English to name but a few.. all made up the "British" forces.

Not sure anyone has contended otherwise Paul.

The point I always like to make, which is indisputable, is that in 1940, after the fall of France, Britain stood alone against the AXIS powers... Britain was totally unprepared for war in 1939, Germany was totally prepared, Britain had 300,00 men, Germany 3 million, I don't know how many Italy came in with in 1940, or how many the Japs had, but you get the point.

The point of Britains refusal to capitulate, is that Churchill knew they only had to survive and not be defeated, they didn't have to win, but stand their ground and do their best.. thank god the rest of the commonwealth sent troops to their aid or they couldn't have done it, but they did, and god bless 'em

I agree also here Paul, but this is not a credit to the training or discipline of the UK Military, it's a testimony to Winston's brass. he had people in his own cabinet wanting to sue for peace, without Winney things are definitely different IMO.

Steel God's (sorry to pick this one out) statement that the NA campaign was irrelevant seems rather off the mark, Egypt, Suez, the Oil fields, the landing place for invasion of Italy, the Moral boosts of Tobruk and El Alamein when things looked dark. The attempt to assist the Balkans and Greece.. all pretty relevant to me... and hundreds of thousands of troops were involved, Hitler sent his best General to sort it out - and he failed, in spite of stealing the Italians equipment and supplies and leaving them with no option to surrender.

You're entitled, but I believe I'm correct when I say that NA (not the Med, North Africa) is not relevant in the big picture of the war. The German chances of capturing Suez are post war fantasy, and of capturing ME Oil Fields even more so. No serious scholar entertains the notion. When you say Hitler's best general, do you mean Rommel? Rommel was a big fish in a small pond, but not only not the German's best General, he is barely more than a gifted Divisional commander. Precisely the kind of general that will shine in a "small" strategically irrelevant palce like Libya. ;)

Russia would have lost the war to Germany IMO if the Japs had not been totally defeated in two decisive battles with Russia in the East. When Stalin was sure that Japan would not attack Russia and was over stretched in SE Asia, he released his Siberian Troops to the defence of Moscow... and that was the end for the ill-equipped (for winter) Germans.

Russia, some what like th UK, could have survived by refusing to surrender. A case can be made that capture of the rail nets around Moscow in 41 before winter sets in COULD have made it strategicaly impossible for Russia to coordinate troop movements effectively, and further more a case can be made that if the Germans attacked east after Smolensk and didn't go south to fight the encirclement of Kiev, they would have had Moscow, regardless of any Siberian troops coming west. Germany had a chance to beat Russia IMO, but it was long odds and they ahd as much to do with not cashing in on them, as the Russians did.

the comment someone made about the Canadian troops is right, they don't get enough recognition for the huge part they played during the War - but us Brits appreciated it I can assure you...

The German Air Force was defeated by the British and the Russian Air forces... not so great. The German Navy was defeated by the British also....

I'm moving into ramble mode fast here now.. time to stop... but I've enjoyed the rant and am enjoying the thread..... remember everyone, nothings personal and keep smiling.. most Army's have had their great times, their lucky times and their disasters, their heriocs and their shame.. we are after all... humans together...

Paul