Mud Movement penalties seem low

[Glenn Saunders]

Interesting idea - and I look forward to seeing what folks have to say here. Just so we all understand though 80 km in 4 days means:

2 hexes per turn for your fastest unit
anything less than a tank will move one hex per turn.
...just so people understand what your proposing

Now for an Example
If you have a B Quality Tiger, it has 72 MPs when it has a assigned unit speed of 11 km per hour in the OOB .... and we all know a Tiger can move faster than 11km\h - but accept this value seems to work for a Tiger Unit.

The Clear terrain cost is 6 MP
if you apply a 400% - the bottom end of % request you suggest, this unit will pay 24 MPs per hex and go 3 hexes.
A similar C quality Tank will go 2 hexes

A D Quality Inf Unit only has 21MP
Clear terrain also cost 6 MP
the game currently assigns a 200% penalty in Mud for Units on foot so count = 12MPs per hex of the 21 MPs the unit has and you go ONE HEX. And you can't go any slower than one hex per turn.

Hope this helps folks undestand the implication of what your suggesting. I am not going to comment on if these as good value or not, but I would caution people who may like the sound of what your sayng to consider as well the effect on the game play. Do you really want to play a game\scn where virtually all the unit can move one hex per turn except some tanks go a bit faster.

I recall my days playesting CS Scns where the movement rates are considerable faster than PzC and we all hated any Mud Scns because the ground conditions slowed the game down so much it sucked the fun out of playing.

Unit speed in any conditions is a very tricky things to gauge and put into any game.

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Follow up post below
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Tracked vehicles were able to move about 80 km in 4 days to move to attacking positions from Mtensk to Tula for example.

OK - and I accept the above as a point of fact too. And Mud aside - here is another couple of examples of Unit speed in cross country movement also worthy of discussion.

The plan for XXX Corps in Market Garden was to punch a hole though the German line and then "Drive like hell" up the highway linking up with each AB Division along the way.

The prize of course we all know was Arnhem Bridge - 64 miles (call it 100 hexes) behind the lines. This GO LIKE HELL - up a surfaced road with the little in the way of expected oppostions was suppose to only take 3 or 4 days - that was the best cse scenario in the plan. And British tanks don't move at night. Now lets do the math!

So - if we say 3 days, 8 daylight turns per day, 100 hexes - that again comes to 3-to-4 hexes per turn on a paved road for tanks with no Mud.

Interesting???

My point here is my math works and is also supported by fact. But would it work for the game if a tank unit only went 4 hexes per turn on roads in good weather? And if yes, what would the cross country ground speed be in normal weather?

We could also do the math in France 40 - perhaps the fastest advance by any army ever. Measure the distance from the Frontier to Abberville - I make it say 300 km (its closer to 320 but whose counting). May 10th the Gemans attacked. May 20th they were at the were at the channel coast at the town of Abberville.

10 days, 300 km = 30km\d
10 turns per day on average is 3 hexes per turn for your tanks again.
ON AVERAGE road and cross country movement combined. o Mud either.

Would this speed of three hexes per turn for tanks - which are supported by fact as we can see - actually work for the game and game play?

It is a very fine line to assign these unit speeds and convert them literally for them to translate into historically correct rates of advance. I really don't have the answer here but I will look with interest at what others have to say.

.... understand the issue goes way beyond Mud and the assignd Mud penalty in the default PDT.

*** My question this:
>>> HOW SLOW is TOO SLOW when it comes to having a game that is still fun to play and still feels like it represents a historical battle?

I'd really love to hear what you guys have to say on this point.

For arguement sake, lets say the team is making a new PzC game on the Russian Front where MUD at times was a factor.

How slow dare I make the fastest units go in Mud?

Here is your chance to provide input before the game is made.

Great topic guys!

Glenn