Stabilizers

[Walrus]

Low Bidder.

You say..
This seems like a low key, perfectly rational discussion to me.

To me it seems like an unsubstantiated rant, full of opinions being passed off as fact and showing no respect for anyone else's opinions.
Re-read you posts...waving the flag (of your particular nation) and yelling louder than the next guy does not make you correct...just annoying.

You say..
...as my debate opponents avoid putting forth any evidence to support their unsupportable claims.

Ha! That's hilarious.
Re-read your posts. You post one link, and that is to prove that you were wrong!

OK, I found some pictures of the inside of a turret on a T-55, with a stabilizer. So my information was wrong.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4008399/Inside...reat-Tanks

Brahmin posted some links and so actually put forward some evidence in support of his claims...unlike yourself.

You make comments like...
No, I don't buy that theory at all. Since nobody has every produced any evidence to support that theory, I feel justified in calling it bogus.
...while producing zero evidence of anything. Classic.

and...
How ever, the Soviets were absolutly first rate at telling lies. They were so good they started believing their own lies, which is why the Soviet Union collapsed.
...as if that makes any sense at all. Pure speculation and generalization. Hardly evidence in support of your theory.

Then my favorite so far..

It is a matter of historic fact that Soviet weapons were badly designed and poorly built.

hahahah...nice one. Statements like that just make your all arguments seem unsupportable. Who's historic fact? That's just a pointless statement...and then this post, which is just complete rant.

Historical evidence. Or at least what the rest of the world would consider historical evidence. What would you consider evidence? Would kill ratios be good enough? How about E. German tankers who thought they had died and gone to heaven when they traded their old Soviet tanks in for even older German ones? Or would you consider them biased also?
Iraqi Tankers that traded in T-72's for M-60's.
Egyptian tankers that traded in T-62's for M1A1's?
Just what would you consider evidence? I need to know so I don't waste time looking up stuff that you will claim is not evidence. That is an old Propaganda game and I won't play it. Tell me what you need and I will find it. If I can't , then you are correct. the Soviet Union was the greatest thing since sliced bread and you can then explain why it collapsed like a house of cards, folded like a cheap suit.
BTW, how about a rough estimate on how many millions of people were murdered by Communists before the USSR (CCCP) fell into the compost heap of history? 60? 100? 140?

Add to that the story about getting your helmet polished in a M-48 and this thread ends up being almost nothing to do with wargaming at all, let alone the title of the thread.

It is completely obvious that..

War gaming is ABOUT politics and History. You cannot separate the 3.

...but my point is that this forum is filled with quite different people, some of whom hold very different view points compered to your 'truths' and a discussion that veers too far off track just ends up going nowhere...as this one has.
So, generally, at least back when I had something to do with monitoring behavior here, conversations of the kind that this thread has sunk to, are frowned upon.
If you want to PM and email anyone about anything, that's cool...but here, stating your opinion is OK...but ranting until everyone gives up (if that's your tactic) is not Good Form..

You say...

Nobody has mentioned anyone's mother, dog or pick-up. Which makes it civilized discourse by Internet standards.

...which is true enough...but I have always been happy to find that this place is well above 'internet standards' of discourse, which is often 12 yr old kids learning that they can swear and be bigoted, xenophobic, racist and sexist arse-holes without getting punched in the face for it.
Not something I think is a positive thing for general communication.

So WHAT is the harm? What exactly did you read that you took umbrage with?.

Is that a concise enough answer?

Look bro, I respect your right to believe what you want. Plenty of your historical and technical knowledge will no doubt be the accepted 'truth' of most players here, but some of your unsubstantiated claims are pure cant and rant and really...I shall say it again, by quoting you..

(I agree with your point of view) that this might not be the best venue for this discussion.

Cheers