Infantry Against Tanks 1941

[Bear]

I agree Bear. Just how good are your Russian units and leaders in 1941? Mine were never very good.

In fact, far from being good they were close to being the worst units and leaders of any army, at any time period in the entire war. Not the best of times to use the Molotov Cocktail. Of course that's when they were most prevalent.


Good Hunting.

MR

:soap:
Here is where the discussion about Molotov Cocktails was subverted by this most provocative opinion that is entirely Off Topic.

Many members and visitors to our Club might be misled, confused or even offended by such remarks since we are an internet based club that prides itself on war games and the historical backgrounds surrounding our gaming activities.

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I think that if the Russians had been performing so greatly and consistantly across the fronts and that the mighty molotov was indeed so mighty, the Germans would have picked up the weapon and produced it in great numbers instead of investing research into the Pzfaust and other AT weapons. As well, there should be Russian formations that are common knowledge of everyone, that are well know for combat greatness like many German formations such as the GD and several SS divisions, to name a few.

This quote is a fraud, false and does not come close to anything I wrote here. I never said that and this thread is a record that I DID NOT WRITE THAT.

You were making a point on page two of this thread how great the performance was of the 1st Guards Mot. Rifle Division in stopping the German advance in the Orsha Smolensk area during 1941. I was commenting that it might not have been so on a consistent basis. This division was totally wiped out in July 1941 near Smolensk (Glantz- Colossus Reborn) and had to be totally remade. What I have been trying to say is yes(note the word YES), the Russians did have very (read VERY) limited success in 1941 and early 42, but by no means can it be said that they all or even some had continued success during their often short lives. And on top of this, most Russian successes came on the shirt-tails of poor German logistics, ect. Once these German setbacks had time to regroup, they went right back to roughing up Russian divisions across the fronts. This continued right up to late 1942. Again, with fewer and fewer resources and men the Germans continued to make gain after gain against numerically superior and often better equiped Russian formations.
You also made sure that the molotov issue was brought forth in your post as though it somehow had some bearing on the outcome of the battles involving the 1st Guards Mot. Rifle Division. I am not arguing that they probably had quite a few of the cocktails in hand, but I suggested by loooking at what the other nations in the war were researching and producing at the time in the way of AT weapons, that there value must have been rather limited by nature. And for Mr Yormsha, this would apply to both real life and CMBB experience. As MR has stated elsewhere, this is all they had so they used them, but it does not mean that they would not have went to something else given the chance, or that they performed exceptionally well in any situation.

Not true.
I never said the 1.Moscow Motorized Division was a Guards unit. It now seems, after two misquotes attributed to me, that there is more afoot here than a simple discussion about Molotov Cocktails, eh

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Hmmm.

Interesting thread.

I think it began with a sort of 'Are Molotov cocktails any good?'

And decended into 'Russian infantry are the worst infantry units ever. Period.'

Via 'I've read loads more books than you have.'

Which slightly disturbs me. Why? Well bacause we seem to slip, without thought, into game world and real world.

So. From the top. (In the world of CMBB,) I've killed tanks with molotov cocktails before. And given them one almighty fright. So by a dictionary definition they are not 'useless'.

Secondly. (Snap my fingers, back in the real world.) The point made about 'carrying a molotov to berlin' and all that rubbish. It completely misses the point. The beauty of a molotov was you could assemble virtually anywhere.

Imagine.

'Quick the enemy are coming, and they have tanks. We could kick in a door of some building. Find some bottles (or other fragile vessel,) a bit of cloth (the arm of your undershirt would do...) and he presto. Quite a potent anti tank weapon if he happened to drive too close.'

That was the real beauty of it. Much better than any anti personel grenade in my book.

Right onwards, with the march of a zealot. the Russians are rubbish infantry.

A statement that borders on racist/childishly naive. (IMHO.)

And again i'm going to ask you to imagine something.

Imagine, you teachers at school had all been shot. on the orders of your government. and members of the local council. and doctors. and pretty much any one else the government considered a 'threat'. maybe a brother, uncle, cousin.

that was your day to day life. (which, before all that was a damn sight harder than anything we're used to today.)

then one day news comes through that a foreign army approaches.

but you're ordered to fight them. but i'm afraid there's one rifle between twenty.

what would you do?

think about it a minute.

which is why, when i hear them dismissed as "fickle" i find deeply disturbing. It really does make my blood boil.

Especially when coupled with that 'when I've commanded the Russians..' stuff. you're mixing up two incomparible things.

On the whole i think they fought like lions. way beyond any 'western' comprehension.

I think Bear made a few good points but was getting unfairly slaughtered. And i think people should think a little harder before they wade in with their (lets face it they're not facts) opinions.

I'll go now and leave you alone.

So you stir the pot then say I will leave you alone now????
Why don't you read again what has been said on this thread instead of ranting on and insulting the people who have posted on this thread?
Makes my blood boil springs to mind here!!

Brit Tommy, I do not feel at all insulted by Mr. Yormsha at all. Refreshing to have someone not encouraging spin, or going Off Topic. :smoke:

Matter of fact, Mr Yormsha has pointed out that this thread was/is about Molotov Cocktail use in CM. Others here in this thread digressed into a suspicious view that the Soviet Army were the most inferior and "uncivilized" (shooting Axis troops in the back, feigning death, collaborators etc.) soldiers of WW2? (Quite astounding in light of the record of Axis atrocities in WW2) I did not go OFF TOPIC. Mr Yormsha has chimed in late and observed that the Molotov Cocktail thread had been hijacked for some oddly subtle yet provocative innuendos. These sorts of ideas that do not belong in a war game club. I suspect Mr. Yormsha has detected the same and is letting the Thread Record speak for itself when he cordially bows out of the looming rant/rave/flame up here.