River Issues

[Hawk Kriegsman]

nor the original Talonsoft designers.

You could not be more wrong. It was absolutely their intention. I quote from the various Talonsoft Game Manuals.

EF Guide (1995), Page 1: "A game turn is equivalent to 6 minutes of real time."

EF Campaign CD 1 Manual (1997), Page 1: "Each game turn is equivalent to about 6 minutes of real time."

EF II Manual (1998), Page 2: "Turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time."

WF Manual (1998), Page 2: "Each game turn is equivalent to about 6 minutes of real time."

RS Manual (1999), Page 17: "The game scale is 6 minutes per turn and 250 meters per hex (exceptions: Game Turns during a night scenario represent a longer period of time due to units normally moving slower at night, and the scale of some smaller islands maps has been "stretched" slightly for playabilities sake)."

Pretty clear to me as to the original designers intent.

It seems that the current Matrix game sees it the same too.
John Tiller's Campaign Series Manual (Matrix 2008) Section 1, Page 13: "Combat is performed on a “hex grid” map that has defined wargaming for over three decades. Each “hex” represents 250 meters; with 4 hexes to a kilometer or 6 hexes to a mile. Turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time."

Now as you have stated that is a discussion for a different thread.

New post for river thoughts.

Thanx!

Hawk

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Permanent bridges should be able to be destroyed and or damaged by engineers/arty fire/ air power etc to bring realism to the game.

If you are talking hexside bridges then I agree 100%.

There are plenty instances of smaller bridges being taken out this way.

If you are talking full hex bridges then I disagree 100%.

I am unaware of major bridges being destroyed by gunfire or artillery. By conscentrated air strikes absolutely taken out, by close air support. No.

Having the Permanent Bridges impervious to any type of damage is ridiculous.

Possibly you could have major bridges be considered wired for a scenario, but as Huib correctly points out that is well beyond CS scale.

River crossings
There should be no realistic reasons why you should not be able to cross a river or major river and have to have shallow water to begin the crossing. As a kid we had a rowboat, canoe and a few rubber rafts which we used to fish in the Schuylkill river in PA. The depth of the water where we would launch the boats was at least 6' deep and we simply pushed part of the boat in the water some got in and the others pushed the remainder of the boat in the water and jumped in or all got in and pushed off the bank with paddles. There is no realistic reason why you should need shallow water to cross any type of river with a raft crewed boat etc. in this game and should be changed.

Did you and your friends do this in uniform, with boots on, combat webbing, ammo, 2 days of food, rifle, baynoet, e-tool, first aid kit, loaded ruck sack, etc.... in the rain, snow, sleet, while being shot at or under artillery fire?

I will assume no. That is the best reason I can give you. It is easy in a shorts and t-shit. Not so much in full combat gear.

Also CS has no provisions for screwing up a boat loading (tipping over, overloading, etc...)

I think the loading process is fine. I do agree that once loaded shallow or deep water should not matter. I think the issue here is deep water also represents ocean and seas. Tough to put a row boat in the ocean.

Maybe the better option is to add a third type of water, like ocean. :chin:

That way manpowered craft can use shallow or deep water, but not ocean.

River crossing vehicles and River Depth
Both the Allies and Axis units in WWII had vehicles which could cross water obstacles depending on how deep the water was. They should be added to the OBs. Additionally rivers did not always have the same depths at all points along the length of the river as this game does not depict, and I am not referring to placing shallow water hexes. Some points on the river may/could have a depth of 20' some other point 10' some points 4' etc.

There are all sorts of vehicles in the game that can do this. The game already takes this into account with fords, deep rivers and shallow rivers. Placing shallow water is how you take into account for shallow spots where veicles can cross.

Most vehicles I believe have a fording depth of 3 to 4 feet.

At CS scale this is just fine.

If a scenario is designed with a river, each point (hex) along the length of that river should have a designated depth and the depth of the river can be found just like pressing the coordinate key. Crossing deeper water by vehicles/inf which can actually cross the river at that point, would place sever movement costs on the units which could cross in that hex and possibly be disrupted after crossing but should still be able to cross the river a certain points without the use of a bridge, boat, ferry, or adding a shallow water hex etc.

This level of detail is well beyond CS scale. I am not even sure if Combat Missions has this level of detail.

Although a ferry type of special building would be nice and could prove to be useful.

Thanx!

Hawk