Moscow '42 balance opinions thus far?

[ComradeP]

I can again only stress that units in the 4. Armee sector are Fixed, and that there is supposed to be no combat there until the 13th of December, allowing them to refit. Similarly, parts of 9. Armee can also recover to full strength prior to the Soviet offensive. I haven't seen any arguments as to how the Soviets are to prevent that, or how that what I'm describing isn't actually what is happening in those sectors.

Dog Soldier: you're commenting on my strategy in somewhat absolute terms. I don't mean that I'd immediately pull back my mobile units in such a way that it leaves the infantry's flanks hanging in the breeze. Rather, I'd pull them back slowly to allow the infantry to get out. 4. Armee has 2 infantry divisions in reserve that will be near full strength or full strength by the time they activate, together with an infantry division of 4. Panzergruppe belonging to VII. Armeekorps. They can then take the place of more mobile units in the 3. and 4. Panzergruppe sectors.

The mobile units can also rotate their Krad and Pioniere battalions into the frontline and give their motorized infantry some rest. Also, because you're pulling back through woods, it might not always be necessary to keep a full battalion in a hex. ~250 men would presumably be just fine as long as they keep withdrawing so the Soviets can't assault them. Remember that the strategy is aimed towards minimizing the number of Soviet assaults, trading space so your units can recover.

It is also crucial to remember that your Panzer units can refit on almost every turn after they get to a major road. They can refit for most of a day behind the frontline, move for a turn or two when the Soviets get closer, refit again, and it will keep them out of range of a 1 hex per turn advance, all of this is with other parts of the division at the actual frontline.

The Germans also don't all have to withdraw very far to get to a supply level of (close to) 50. 3. and 4. Panzergruppe only need to withdraw to a bit beyond Klin or roughly half the distance to Ruza to get to local supply levels in the high 40's.

Reducing supply could work, but it would need to be reduced by about 20 in the 3. and 4. Panzergruppe and 4. Armee areas to have a substantial effect, which would presumably also mean the units would become low ammo (and artillery unavailable) soon and that the German player has even less incentive to limit his withdrawal to a historical rate.

Not to mention that with such low supply rates, 4. Armee would be overwhelmed by full strength Soviet units (as Soviet supply would still be the same and the Soviets also refit rapidly). Lower supply levels would make the game more challenging for the Germans, but in that case Soviet supply is still probably going to be too high to limit their later advances through supply shortages. As you can see in the January campaign start scenario, Soviet supply levels are still 60-70 in the northern part of the front and in the mid to high 40's in the bulge west of the Oka. That will mean the majority of the Soviet units will still be able to refit rapidly. Cutting Soviet supply by 20 or so wouldn't reduce the replacements gained by the units opposing 4. Armee by much, if it reduces them at all.

The gap in replacements between German and Soviet infantry is much less than it would normally be, as the Germans get an average of 8 and the Soviets an average of 6 at 50 local supply, but that still favours the Germans over time as a full strength German battalion is a tough nut to crack without substantial artillery support.

Grossdeutschland is split up in half battalions at the start, so the result posted is quite predictable: you're assaulting an at best ~180 men unit with what looks like a full stack, presumably after shelling it first.

The full strength based replacement system does create a big gap in tank reinforcements, as Soviet units tend to be (much) smaller than combined German units. A 16 max strength T-34 unit refits at about 1/4 the rate of a full 4 company German medium Panzer battalion (which is possible because the Germans can merge companies from different battalions but in the same regiment for some reason).

Here's an overview of the extent of how much 4. Armee refitted in 30 turns. 19th Panzer's armour is Detached due to being too far from its HQ, hence the minimal replacements compared to 20th Panzer.

I can again only stress that units in the 4. Armee sector are Fixed, and that there is supposed to be no combat there until the 13th of December, allowing them to refit. Similarly, parts of 9. Armee can also recover to full strength prior to the Soviet offensive. I haven't seen any arguments as to how the Soviets are to prevent that, or how that what I'm describing isn't actually what is happening in those sectors.

Dog Soldier: you're commenting on my strategy in somewhat absolute terms. I don't mean that I'd immediately pull back my mobile units in such a way that it leaves the infantry's flanks hanging in the breeze. Rather, I'd pull them back slowly to allow the infantry to get out. 4. Armee has 3 infantry divisions in reserve that will be near full strength or full strength by the time they activate. They can then take the place of more mobile units in the 3. and 4. Panzergruppe sectors.

The mobile units can also rotate their Krad and Pioniere battalions into the frontline and give their motorized infantry some rest. Also, because you're pulling back through woods, it might not always be necessary to keep a full battalion in a hex. ~250 men would presumably be just fine as long as they keep withdrawing so the Soviets can't assault them. Remember that the strategy is aimed towards minimizing the number of Soviet assaults, trading space so your units can recover.

It is also crucial to remember that your Panzer units can refit on almost every turn after they get to a major road. They can refit for most of a day behind the frontline, move for a turn or two when the Soviets get closer, refit again, and it will keep them out of range of a 1 hex per turn advance, all of this is with other parts of the division at the actual frontline.

The Germans also don't all have to withdraw very far to get to a supply level of (close to) 50. 3. and 4. Panzergruppe only need to withdraw to a bit beyond Klin or roughly half the distance to Ruza to get to local supply levels in the high 40's. Reducing supply could work, but it would need to be reduced by about 20 in the 3. and 4. Panzergruppe and 4. Armee areas to have a substantial effect, which would presumably also mean the units would become low ammo (and artillery unavailable) soon and that the German player has even less incentive to limit his withdrawal to a historical rate.

Not to mention that with such low supply rates, 4. Armee would be overwhelmed by full strength Soviet units (as Soviet supply would still be the same and the Soviets also refit rapidly). Lower supply levels would make the game more challenging for the Germans, but in that case Soviet supply is still probably going to be too high to limit their later advances through supply shortages.

As you can see in the January campaign start scenario, Soviet supply levels are still 60-70 in the northern part of the front and in the mid to high 40's in the bulge west of the Oka. That will mean the majority of the Soviet units will still be able to refit rapidly. Cutting Soviet supply by 20 or so wouldn't reduce the replacements gained by the units opposing 4. Armee by much, if it reduces them at all.

The gap in replacements between German and Soviet infantry is much less than it would normally be, as the Germans get an average of 8 and the Soviets an average of 6 at 50 local supply, but that still favours the Germans over time as a full strength German battalion is a tough nut to crack without substantial artillery support.

Grossdeutschland is split up in half battalions at the start, so the result posted is quite predictable: you're assaulting an at best ~180 men unit with what looks like a full stack, presumably after shelling it first.

The full strength based replacement system does create a big gap in tank reinforcements, as Soviet units tend to be (much) smaller than combined German units. A 16 max strength T-34 unit refits at about 1/4 the rate of a full 4 company German medium Panzer battalion (which is possible because the Germans can merge companies from different battalions but in the same regiment for some reason).

Here's an overview of the extent of how much 4. Armee refitted in 30 turns. 19th Panzer's armour is Detached due to being too far from its HQ, hence the minimal replacements compared to 20th Panzer. The motorized infantry divisions have fewer battalions, but the individual battalions have a higher max strength, hence their roughly comparable replacement rate to 9 battalion infantry divisions.