Updated Normandy'44_Alt (third time, 13 AUG)

[Volcano Man]

Well, I believe the problem isn't so much with the ratings, it is more to do with the quantity of these tanks in Normandy '44 in general. I mean, each Panzer division seems to have one battalion of Panthers, and each of these battalions are in the 60 to 70 tank strength range, which I wonder how correct that is. I mean, 76 tanks in a battalion is full strength, but surely their actual strength was not full. Anyone have the strengths of these Panther battalions at the time they entered the line? I would like to guess that they probably went into battle with less than 100% strength and perhaps their arrivals should reflect that.

But ignoring their abundance, which could be an issue already, and just answering the question without that in mind:

Basically, yes, you deal with them with other tanks and AT guns.

I just experimented with it myself, placing 50 Panther tanks (I/SS.Pz.12 -- A quality) into a single hex, combined, and fired on a British infantry battalion in TRENCH hex + Village (-70%). First shot, 6 men. Second shot, 14 men. Third shot, 4 men. This isn't that severe in the situation here, of course you don't want them sitting out in the open getting shot obviously, as they would rightly get decimated.

Repeating the example above, I had the 50 Panthers assault the dug in battalion and the result was 1 tank lost to 14 men killed. Considering that 1 tank essentially = 10 men, this isn't what I would call a steam roll (that is, by forcing into the terrain by direct assault without disruption first).

[AT guns] In the example mentioned above with the "super stack of 50 SS Panther tanks, presumably the Allied player should recognize this over time, and counter. I just ran a test -- where are you 17 pounder AT guns? One AT battalion numbers 32 such guns, and I placed them in the path of the Panther battalion and killed 6 tanks per turn, and the Panthers killed a gun in reply in a turn (the guns were dug in the same TRENCH/villiage hex).

[Tanks] In the same example above, the combined battalion of 30 Sherman II "The Greys" (B quality) with 10 tanks of its VC Firefly tanks (40 tanks total) countered the Panthers and killed 2 tanks in one shot, then another, and so forth. Bringing up the 44 RTR and 3 CLY repeated the pattern (comprising the full 4th Arm Bde) to the point where the 50 tank Panther battalion lost 10 tanks in the single turn, was disrupted, and had fatigue of 156.

The opponent should recognize where the large tank unit is, and understand that his tanks are consolidated in that place, and counter in like kind? Especially since the Germans, apparently attacking in your example, would be moving into the enemy tanks countering from fortified positions? If anything you should certainly keep your tanks in maybe 15 to 20 tank units to be very effective, but if you combine too many together then you only serve to make yourself vulnerable to isolation because, for example, you are pushing forward into the enemy by assaults.

Other than that, I did mass artillery fire in the area on the 50 Panther battalion and was about to kill 3, with about 6 barrages of 3 and 5 HA rated guns, so you can kill the tanks with artillery, but of course you cannot rely on them to do so -- they are supplemental to the above, and keep them fatigue accumulation on (which is very important).

This then brings us to infantry: and unfortunately infantry just have to sit in the path of tanks and get shot at. Where they kill tanks is when the tanks assault to take the terrain they sit in. I understand that this isn't popular with a lot of people, of course.

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Like I said though, I think the real issue in the long run is the quantity of these vehicles available to the Germans. I just don't really believe that they actually had these 100% full strength Panther battalions moving into the line. What about air interdiction before they entered the map? What about breakdowns along the way from their long marches into the map? What about maintenance failures before the tanks actually departed from their original locations (which is an inevitable fact of armor, you always have some down for maintenance, even when nothing is going on). It could very well be that these battalions should be lowered to 80% once they arrive as reinforcement, which would put them at 61 tanks instead of 76, which will make a huge difference in the long run, especially since they never really recover their full strength.

Here are two examples --in this case regarding the 2nd Panzer Division:

"Due to this, to damage and delays caused by the action of groups of partisans and allied air raids, the Division did not reach the front in Normandy until July." --Wiki

...regarding the 9th SS Panzer Division:

"Hohenstaufen suffered losses from Allied fighter bombers during its move to Normandy, delaying its arrival until 26 June 1944." --Wiki

That implies that these divisions did NOT arrive at full strength. Maybe they arrived at 70% for all we know, but 80% seems reasonable. This can be assumed as the norm by any of these panzer divisions that arrived from off-map sources in Calais IMO, so it makes perfect sense to probably reduce not just the Panther battalion arrival strength but the entire division's arrival strength.

Then we have unit quality levels (morale). Who is to say that the 9th SS Panzer Division shouldn't be B quality instead of A? Maybe some other units could be reduced as well. The 1st SS Panzer Division is rated as C, for example and in the stock game, Wittman's own SS.Pz.101 is rated at B in the OOB for that matter. I tend to limit the liberal assignment of A quality ratings to Germans divisions in the Alt anyway, reserving it only for truly elite formations because, generally speaking, it is tendency in most PzC to rate the Germans too highly to compensate for their mediocre stock combat ratings. Combined with the reducing of on-map starting strength of the tank battalions (to 80%) to compensate for maintenance failures and pre-map entering air interdiction, and I think we have the real solution.

Anyway, these are the things that have to be discussed. Having played with the McNamara values for some time, I just don't see them as the cause of the super-tank stack concern here, I think the real problem is the starting strength and the quality.

Hmm yes, I make make these changes in the next update, one day when I am bored. ;)