Panzer Battles 2 - The Official Teaser Thread

[ComradeP]

Pity that you lost that post, I always enjoy reading about how the system is supposed to work/how it's coded, as it helps to understand why something might not be working or what can be done about a certain problem.

As far as esoteric values such as ammo, range finders etc, they are built into the range and hard/soft attack values. Compare a Sherman's 75mm at 18 HA and 8 range to a T34 43's 17 HA and 6 range. The range in particular reflects sights, crew and other factors. Morale is meant to represent training, experience and doctrine. Another point of comparison is the KV1 42 where the same 76mm gun  is 16 HA and 6 range. This again represents factors such as turret speed, overall manoeuvrability etc

I know that's the intention, but the mechanics could use some more clearly defined effects that always work/apply to model something like one side using a superior fighting vehicle.

Due to the range modifier, square root modifier for H>D fire and the variability of results long range fire is a bit of a lottery currently, and all formula's have the same effect on both sides, as well as reducing the effect of the quality fire modifier. Something like a setting for when the range modifier applies for a certain vehicle type and significantly reducing the maximum ranges of some units to a range where they could, on average, still knock out an enemy tank at a common angle (so a hit on the hull or turret on the front or side, biased towards the front) could at least remove some of the variability there.

The current formula's lead to 2 extremes:

1: Units that have high HA values to represent good firepower at longer ranges have excellent firepower at range 1, but their firepower drops in the same way as that of other unit at longer ranges and the formula's make it 2 vehicle or higher loss results uncommon. In the entirety of my Ozerovskii game with RickyB, I believe we got a bit over a dozen 2 vehicle loss results, and a single 3 vehicle loss result.

2: Units with low HA values might still knock out a tank at longer ranges due to the actual loss being determined by a die roll.

I've lost a Tiger to 2 D quality 45mm guns at, I believe, range 4 and another Tiger to a T-70 unit firing uphill from, I believe, 3 hexes away. I've also knocked out StuGs from 6 hexes away with 2 D quality 76.2mm guns and on the German side of the coin: I've knocked out T-34's with Panzer III's from 6 hexes away.

The randomness caused by the formula's all having some effect on eachother can lead to very strange results due to there being no clearly defined actual penetration capabilities, but everything being abstracted.

Overall, infantry units have a far more predictable and consistent fire effect than vehicle units. The casualties inflicted by infantry units are still random, but you always get something provided your unit is big enough.

For vehicle units, it's quite common for an A quality 10 vehicle Panzer IV unit to get a fatigue result on one roll and a 1 vehicle loss result with the next.

An A quality PzG unit would inflict casualties with both rolls and would in most cases have a fairly easy time dealing with a  2 platoon Soviet Guards Rifle merged unit in the open in a situation where the Germans fire first and decide at what range the engagement starts. A 10 vs. 10 engagement with tanks is also likely to end in a German victory, but the relative cost is also likely to be higher than the cost of the infantry engagement.

A workaround like adjusting the hard fire effect would also increase the problem that vehicles like the Marder, which depended on long range engagements allowing them to knock out T-34's before they could be effectively engagement in order to keep them alive, are very vulnerable currently due to having a low defense value. Artillery is also known for causing a reasonable number of tank losses even with the current values, due to the German tanks having mediocre defence values and the actual loss result depending on a die roll.

Statistically speaking, anything with a hard attack value has some chance to destroy every hard target within its range, regardless of how mismatched the hard attack value is to the defence value.

I don't want vehicle combat to give guaranteed results, but ironing out the extremes and emphasizing the strengths and weakness of certain vehicles in a way that the system can model would help.