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Normandy Patch Update
02-24-2016, 04:03 AM,
#58
RE: Normandy Patch Update
Now that I have a working internet connection:

David, though the math in your post adds up, there are some things that should be taken into consideration, which change the picture:

-In PzC, the (vast) majority of the regular infantry units used are battalions. Some sides can't split up units to begin with, and the Germans also often use battalions (which may have the strength of about 2-3 companies in the case of the "new" 4 company-style battalions).

In PB, the majority of the regular infantry units are platoon or two-platoon combined units. Full companies are larger than 100 men for many of the nations involved aside from German regular infantry platoons in Normandy, so they attract additional casualties and block LOS, making it less practical to use them.

What this means is that, by default, your units are more likely to gain fatigue at a higher factor in PB than in PzC, due to the average infantry unit size being smaller.

-In PzC, not all units at or near the frontline will take more than a handful of casualties (or none at all) each turn as the scale of the fighting means there will be quiet areas where not much happens.

Most units in PB at or near the frontline are likely to take casualties each turn due to unlimited opportunity fire and potentially numerous artillery units.

More or less by default, due to the smaller unit sizes units in Panzer Battles take more casualties on average as a percentage of their total strength than they would in PzC. In pretty bad turns where a battalions loses some 50 men in PzC, that's still not likely to be much more than 10% of its theoretical maximum strength. For a unit to lose ~10% of its maximum theoretical strength in PB, it only needs to take a handful of losses in most cases.

It is nearly impossible to kill most of a full strength battalion in one turn through direct fire in PzC, whilst it is quite possible to kill most of a company in PB through direct fire. Units are smaller in PB, but SA values are equal or higher to those in PzC. Combined with unlimited opportunity fire, that can lead to situations where units quickly lose their strength.

Getting a unit into medium fatigue from 0 to 100 in one turn through direct fire in PzC is not all that easy, but it's not that difficult to do in PB.

-In PzC, low visibility ranges and 6-8 or so daylight turns mean there is, with good play and with available reserves, room to make units recover from fatigue. As fatigue accumulates more slowly and the threshold for medium fatigue is higher, the amount of fatigue that needs to be recovered/the number of turns a unit needs to rest before it is combat effective again is usually low.

In PzC, unit effectiveness can only be crippled quickly through assaults when the unit is ZOC-locked or hitting it hard with airstrikes, artillery and direct fire. Both of those methods can only be applied to a small number of the enemy's units each turn.

In PB, long visibility ranges and over 30 daylight turns make it very difficult for units to regain fatigue during a battle, keeping in mind that any kind of fire blocks fatigue recovery.

As usual with percentage modifiers, penalties and bonuses, they only have a significant effect on higher numbers, which means fatigue accumulation and recovery is on average not all that different with a value of 10. Particularly as the fatigue mechanic is "none to twice" the listed value in the parameter data dialog, which makes it difficult to predict what kind of fatigue your unit will have and makes short rest periods less effective in terms of reliably getting your force back in shape.

With a proper defensive deployment, and the means to do offer resistance, inflicting fatigue on the enemy isn't difficult in PB. What makes it seem like a feature that doesn't work right is that the effect on Disruption rolls isn't all that pronounced. Quality dropping one level doesn't cripple units immediately in the majority of cases, a C quality unit becoming D quality still has a 1/2 chance of passing its Disruption check.

More fatigue would also probably end up hurting the units that are in my opinion already too weak, namely all those C quality low SA Commonwealth infantry units, even weaker compared to A and B quality German units that have high SA values and quality bonuses to nullify or reduce the impact of fatigue.

Increased fatigue gain and an overall higher disruption/broken chance are some of those "careful what you wish for" kind of things.
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Messages In This Thread
Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 01-19-2016, 01:51 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Compass Rose - 01-19-2016, 02:15 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by casebier - 01-19-2016, 08:56 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 01-22-2016, 09:48 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 01-23-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Chris Merchant - 01-23-2016, 08:40 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by GerryM - 01-24-2016, 03:27 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by nim8or - 01-24-2016, 03:45 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by FroBodine - 01-26-2016, 05:52 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 01-23-2016, 10:18 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 01-24-2016, 01:09 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by nim8or - 01-24-2016, 02:10 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by GerryM - 01-24-2016, 03:53 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Gregor - 01-24-2016, 07:02 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 01-25-2016, 04:31 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Nemo84 - 01-26-2016, 05:07 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 01-26-2016, 08:06 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 01-30-2016, 03:43 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 01-30-2016, 09:47 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 01-26-2016, 08:13 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by FroBodine - 01-24-2016, 03:36 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 01-24-2016, 10:38 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by nim8or - 01-25-2016, 02:17 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 01-25-2016, 04:12 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 01-26-2016, 06:47 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by FroBodine - 01-26-2016, 07:30 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by nim8or - 01-26-2016, 09:05 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 01-28-2016, 07:41 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 02-05-2016, 10:55 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 02-06-2016, 03:54 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Xaver - 02-06-2016, 06:53 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 02-06-2016, 11:25 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 02-14-2016, 08:13 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 02-14-2016, 09:04 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 02-14-2016, 10:39 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 02-07-2016, 02:55 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 02-07-2016, 06:20 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 02-07-2016, 08:57 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 02-07-2016, 10:04 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by GerryM - 02-14-2016, 09:45 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 02-14-2016, 10:26 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 02-14-2016, 09:59 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by panzerde - 02-15-2016, 04:32 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 02-15-2016, 05:39 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 02-15-2016, 07:06 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 02-15-2016, 08:31 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Gregor - 02-15-2016, 09:20 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 02-16-2016, 05:05 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 02-16-2016, 05:54 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 02-16-2016, 08:15 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Mike Bowen - 02-17-2016, 04:54 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 02-17-2016, 11:09 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 02-17-2016, 07:35 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 02-17-2016, 11:04 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Mike Bowen - 02-18-2016, 04:02 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Wecky - 02-18-2016, 09:19 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by panzerde - 02-23-2016, 12:01 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 02-24-2016, 04:03 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 02-24-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 02-24-2016, 09:55 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 02-24-2016, 11:55 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 02-25-2016, 03:07 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 02-25-2016, 09:29 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 02-28-2016, 11:02 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Compass Rose - 02-28-2016, 11:48 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Hadge - 02-29-2016, 12:10 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by nim8or - 02-29-2016, 01:50 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 02-29-2016, 08:02 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Kuriltai - 02-29-2016, 08:28 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 02-29-2016, 11:05 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 02-29-2016, 04:32 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 03-08-2016, 02:23 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 03-08-2016, 05:20 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 03-08-2016, 08:43 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 03-08-2016, 09:24 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 03-09-2016, 12:18 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 03-09-2016, 05:31 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by -72- - 03-11-2016, 08:25 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Don Czirr - 03-20-2016, 11:35 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 04-10-2016, 12:11 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 04-11-2016, 11:45 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Compass Rose - 04-12-2016, 02:45 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 04-23-2016, 09:28 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Compass Rose - 04-23-2016, 09:36 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by -72- - 04-23-2016, 02:46 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Xaver - 04-24-2016, 07:34 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 04-29-2016, 06:44 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Compass Rose - 04-30-2016, 12:04 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Xaver - 04-30-2016, 08:22 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 05-07-2016, 08:46 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 05-08-2016, 01:45 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 05-08-2016, 02:27 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 05-08-2016, 10:57 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 05-08-2016, 11:14 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 05-09-2016, 12:02 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 05-09-2016, 12:39 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Compass Rose - 05-08-2016, 11:36 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by FroBodine - 05-09-2016, 05:37 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Al - 05-09-2016, 05:59 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by FroBodine - 05-10-2016, 01:50 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ekebrev - 05-10-2016, 06:17 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by DaveMic - 05-10-2016, 07:31 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 05-11-2016, 08:54 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Compass Rose - 05-11-2016, 08:58 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Vatutin - 05-11-2016, 02:57 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Lowlander - 05-12-2016, 05:53 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 05-13-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Lowlander - 05-13-2016, 08:03 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 05-14-2016, 01:55 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Lowlander - 05-14-2016, 05:54 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 05-12-2016, 11:38 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 05-13-2016, 01:08 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 05-13-2016, 05:27 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 05-13-2016, 05:49 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by javier - 05-13-2016, 08:13 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 05-14-2016, 01:33 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by javier - 05-13-2016, 08:28 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 05-14-2016, 01:43 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by javier - 05-13-2016, 08:47 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 05-13-2016, 11:02 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by javier - 05-13-2016, 11:22 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Xaver - 05-14-2016, 04:55 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by javier - 05-16-2016, 04:12 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by wiggum - 05-16-2016, 10:40 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 05-17-2016, 01:16 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by javier - 05-19-2016, 04:18 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 05-19-2016, 06:32 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by javier - 05-19-2016, 08:33 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by javier - 05-19-2016, 09:04 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by javier - 05-19-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 05-19-2016, 10:20 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by javier - 05-19-2016, 10:22 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by javier - 05-19-2016, 10:33 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Bayes - 05-24-2016, 05:49 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 05-25-2016, 05:52 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Bayes - 05-26-2016, 12:04 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 05-26-2016, 01:45 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Bayes - 05-26-2016, 01:56 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 05-26-2016, 02:41 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Bayes - 05-27-2016, 03:18 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by ComradeP - 05-28-2016, 10:04 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Don Czirr - 06-05-2016, 08:01 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 06-06-2016, 02:46 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Don Czirr - 06-06-2016, 06:43 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Strela - 06-06-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Don Czirr - 06-07-2016, 07:01 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Hadge - 06-15-2016, 04:12 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by Lowlander - 06-15-2016, 08:24 AM
RE: Normandy Patch Update - by javier - 07-14-2016, 04:29 PM

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