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France 14 Offensive Tactics
12-29-2020, 11:48 PM, (This post was last modified: 12-30-2020, 12:03 AM by jonnymacbrown.)
#22
RE: France 14 Offensive Tactics
(12-29-2020, 08:29 AM)squarian Wrote:
(12-29-2020, 03:45 AM)jonnymacbrown Wrote: [quote pid="441744" dateline="1609077906"]
I do take the point of your other recommendations, and my thanks for them. But overall, you seem to be advocating the solution of 1915: a methodical approach to an offensive, with heavy artillery preparation relying on attrition to eventually wear down the enemy's resistance through fatigue before launching the infantry offensive. 

And of course, that is exactly the conclusion the actual commanders soon came to. But not in 1914.

Not at all trying to be pedantic nor confrontational but what do you believe was the offensive approach in 1914? How are the tactics and strategies of 1914 not reflected in the game? How is a methodical approach with artillery, cavalry and infantry not a tactic in 1914; keeping in mind that there were more losses in 1914 than in any other year of the war?   jonny Helmet Rolleyes

An example I've already made reference to: Before the Leaves Fall begins at 0600 22 Aug. At that hour, having established the bridgeheads over the Sambre which are the starting position for the scenario, "Buelow hurled three corps" at Lanrezac's 5th Army (all quotes H. Herwig, The Marne, 1914). Buelow's hasty offensive was met by an equally impetuous counterattack, the divisions of Sauret and Defforges charging the "German positions in the early hour mists of 22 August, flags unfurled, bugles blaring, bayonets fixed -- and without artillery support". 

A second day of fighting (Aug 23) ended at 9.30pm with Lanrezac, "appreciating that he had suffered a major defeat", ordering a general retreat, to begin at 0300 Aug 24. Buelow, at nearly the same hour, ordered the offensive to resume the following morning. In fact, what happened was 48 hours of retreat and pursuit.

Two days later on the 26th, as the battle of Le Cateau began on his left, Lanrezac's 5th Army held a front roughly Wassigny (169,138)-la Capelle (194,141)-Watigny (217,150).  Buelow's left had passed to the east of Chimay (228,134), about 40 hexes/km south from the outskirts of Charleroi, whence it had gone into action 96 hours earlier. 

I'm the first to admit that this narrative is lacking in many respects. Without consulting detailed official histories and war diaries, it is not possible from the above to say with certainty how "methodical" the fighting near the Sambre was on Aug 22 and 23. I'd submit, however, that the evidence I've offered makes it unlikely that II Army engaged in anything like a methodical approach - and certainly Gens. Sauret and Defforges did not.

Secondly I suspect that against any human player who is not actively attempting to roleplay early-war French offensive doctrine (which is to say, imitating Sauret & Defforges), German II Army is unlikely to duplicate its historical progress Aug 22-26. I empathically acknowledge that I arrive at this surmise on no worthwhile basis of evidence whatsoever, and I'll be very glad to be proven wrong. But as to what I believe to have been the historical offensive approach in 1914, I think the example of the battle of Charleroi speaks for itself.

[/quote]

I thought Casey Stengel had perfected the art of double-talk but I was wrong! Look, the front from Tournai in the north down to Fort Manonville in the south is 250 miles. The strongest French position is V Armee. So you took some hits. Fall back, re-order, regain some fatigue and pound the enemy position with artillery. Attack somewhere else like in Rossignol, Virton, and Luneville. Turn the French left @ Tournai. Attack the wide-open BEF's right flank. The French can't hold the position @ Givet. There is plenty of room for maneuver all across the board. The game F 14 and First World War Campaigns both accurately reflect the reality of combat in that era; more so than any other wargame out there in my opinion. Just try to figure out how to make the system work and don't think the fault lies with the game's mechanics and the game designer's philosophical approach. It's not easy to figure out and it takes time and heavy losses. Otherwise give it up and try in Eastern Front c. 1941-45 where there are plenty of move & shoot options.
jonny Propeller Hat
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Messages In This Thread
France 14 Offensive Tactics - by Sir John Cope - 12-27-2020, 03:08 PM
RE: France 14 Offensive Tactics - by NikolaiB - 12-27-2020, 03:38 PM
RE: France 14 Offensive Tactics - by NikolaiB - 12-27-2020, 04:51 PM
RE: France 14 Offensive Tactics - by Mr Grumpy - 12-27-2020, 07:48 PM
RE: France 14 Offensive Tactics - by jonnymacbrown - 12-29-2020, 11:48 PM
RE: France 14 Offensive Tactics - by Steel God - 12-27-2020, 10:49 PM
RE: France 14 Offensive Tactics - by jim pfleck - 12-28-2020, 04:16 AM
RE: France 14 Offensive Tactics - by General Mod - 12-28-2020, 10:15 PM
RE: France 14 Offensive Tactics - by Mr Grumpy - 12-29-2020, 01:27 AM
RE: France 14 Offensive Tactics - by Mowgli - 12-29-2020, 01:54 AM
RE: France 14 Offensive Tactics - by NikolaiB - 12-29-2020, 10:47 AM
RE: France 14 Offensive Tactics - by ComradeP - 12-30-2020, 12:37 AM

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