What is with the propoganda at BF???

[Fullhouse]

1 and 2 are not valid. I play CMSF in WEGO, just like in CM. There is no difference.

LOL, this is blatantly and absolutely untrue. WEGO in CMSF is tacked on as an after thought and does not work properly at all, it dosnt even come close.

Also do you want to play a game of wego over TCP/IP? ohhh wait shucks sorry.

Im sorry but anyone who is going to say anything as totally false as the above can only have an agenda of some kind. Are you part of the design team ?

[Sgt Barker]

Would you care to explain why CMSF is not Combat Mission? To me, it looks a lot like Combat Mission with individual soldiers and better graphics.

What makes a game? Three things:

1) Content
Strictly speaking the content will always differ between games, else why write the second one. But content also aptly describes the breadth, depth and scope, and here is where SF is most evidently not CM.

CM is best described as a toolbox, a system in which one can build pretty much anything. SF is a shallow, narrow and limited scope product in comparison.

2) Implementation
This includes presentation, scale, and game play.

SF is the same scale as CM. Presentation is pretty much the same. It’s in game play that it is so different. WEGO is CM, RT is not. At this point (no matter what’s said about first releases, patches, etc), the game is nothing like CM in its AI, ability to command troops, path finding, etc, either. The RT/faux-WEGO system in SF and the completely different AI so changes game play that the games have distinctly different implementations.

3) User Interface
SF is distinctly different from CM. It is a new interface. (As befits a Real Time game.)

It’s obvious why the changes were made, why SF is a new game. BF simply can’t make enough money with CM. There’s too much value, too much replay potential, in the three CM games. The SF business model purposefully hobbles the customer’s ability to ‘do more’ with the product, in order to create a market for add ons. The move to RT is also market driven – it’s what games do now. Those changes – nerfing the depth, change to RT and the accompanying changes to interface and game play - make SF a distinct product and not CM.

[Runyan99]

Believing that WEGO is 'tacked on', whatever that means, simply because there is also a realtime mode in the new engine, is a psychology I find interesting but cannot understand.

[Sgt Barker]

Believing that WEGO is 'tacked on', whatever that means, simply because there is also a realtime mode in the new engine, is a psychology I find interesting but cannot understand.

It's not a frame of mind, it's a reference to the big differences between WEGO play in SF and the three CM games. Everything from the blue bar and being able to ff through the replay to the abiltiy to display all paths and waypoints for the turn support WEGO in CM. Their exclusion from SF is no accident; it's a nerfing, because the game is meant to be an RT game.

[Runyan99]

BFC didn't 'nerf' WEGO. The idea that BFC intentionally made WEGO crappy, because they want you to play in RT is silly. If BFC wanted to CMSF to be a RT game, they would have removed WEGO altogether. They didn't.

Can WEGO be improved in CMSF? Yes. The TacAI needs to improve, and I think it will. Some functions like showing all movement lines may need to be added back in. We'll see what improvements come with time.

The fast forward and the blue bar are gone for the very simple reason that the first play through is the turn calculation. The idea that this is somehow worse than a blue bar is based on a vague idea that the computer cannot both calculate and display the turn at the same time.

[Colonel Talvela]

runyan and I are playing a pbem and it works just like CMx1 wego - except that we one send one file each per turn.

So it is true that tcp wego is gone and single-player wego is quirky. but email wego works the same

[teeps]

I've said it before, but I think some people are forgetting the CM series history. From what everyone says the CMx1 engine needed a number of patches before it was right, and reached it's peak in CMAK, i.e. three paid for products later, yet I don't read many complaints about that.

IMO people should at least let BFC patch SF before dismissing it completely, and recognise that: PBEM is still there and improved in mechanics terms, even if there are some AI issues to be patched; SF represents a leap in terms of 1:1 representation which is significant to me even if not to you guys - now you can see when squad members have LOS (although not flawlessly from what others have said), etc.

What I have always perceived as the core values of CM are still present as far as I can see:
1) Realistic qualities to units and weapons and their effects;
2) Punishment for poor tactics!
3) A realistic and non-gamey approach to simulating battles.

[kineas]

Believing that WEGO is 'tacked on', whatever that means, simply because there is also a realtime mode in the new engine, is a psychology I find interesting but cannot understand.

Wego play and RT play are two different games, each requiring his own gui and command set.

E.g. in wego you need log and stat windows, in RT they are useless. You want to see if your units fired during a turn, you want to see casualty results, and armor penetration tables, or their modern equivalents.

In wego the command set should be big enough and sophisticated, like shoot n scoot commands and the like, because you will leave your troops on their own for 60 secs. No intervening! RT needs smaller, quicker commands and a slick commanding interface.

One can hardly call these separate game modes, these are distinct game genres, engaging totally different sections in your brain. BFC made a realtime game, amended with a wargame-like mode.

[Copper]

Leto]
Bored and reading BF forums, and can't help but choke on some of the hackneyed propoganda that friends and close supporters of BF are posting over there.

Face it, it's over. No more CM as we know it. End of the line. This game is dead... all we have now are CMAK CMBB and CMBO.

But they don't have to wage a war to make us look like we don't know what we want, and that what they put out should be what we want.

Simply, it's not.

The complete and utter disdain for the fact that the game is not what was promised and more importantly, is highly flawed, should not be mitigated by these false prophet advertisements.

I understand that there are going to be many people that like the new game, despite and even FOR its shortcomings... but let's get real people... this is not Combat Mission.

Change is necessary, and change is inevitable. This is, I fear, a new coke mistake of the largest proportions for BF. Unfortunately, I do not see a return (or the capacity) to brewing up classic coke after the new recipe bombs...

I just wish they would stop "lining up" the talking heads... we're not stupid.

Cheers!

Leto

Jeez, you needta remove the pickle man. CMSF is awesome. Have ya even tried it? Plays like a dream.

[Copper]

Leto]
Bored and reading BF forums, and can't help but choke on some of the hackneyed propoganda that friends and close supporters of BF are posting over there.

Face it, it's over. No more CM as we know it. End of the line. This game is dead... all we have now are CMAK CMBB and CMBO.

But they don't have to wage a war to make us look like we don't know what we want, and that what they put out should be what we want.

Simply, it's not.

The complete and utter disdain for the fact that the game is not what was promised and more importantly, is highly flawed, should not be mitigated by these false prophet advertisements.

I understand that there are going to be many people that like the new game, despite and even FOR its shortcomings... but let's get real people... this is not Combat Mission.

Change is necessary, and change is inevitable. This is, I fear, a new coke mistake of the largest proportions for BF. Unfortunately, I do not see a return (or the capacity) to brewing up classic coke after the new recipe bombs...

I just wish they would stop "lining up" the talking heads... we're not stupid.

Cheers!

Leto

Jeez, you needta remove the pickle man. CMSF is awesome. Have ya even tried it? Plays like a dream.

Yikes! Looks like they're here now!!

: )

Cheers!

Leto