Question for Strela (Korsun V4)

Volcano Man · 06-15-2010, 07:49 AM,

Yes, essentially. It is all Strela's own excellent work so I don't want to take any credit for it, but it is essentially an _Alt scenario (uses the _Alt unit values and such and it hosted at vmods.com).

**Mr Grumpy** · 06-15-2010, 09:41 AM,

(06-15-2010, 07:49 AM)Volcano Man Wrote: Yes, essentially. It is all Strela's own excellent work so I don't want to take any credit for it, but it is essentially an _Alt scenario (uses the _Alt unit values and such and it hosted at vmods.com).

Ok thank you.

Strela, please do not create a scenario entry in the DB, this will be done when the _alt scenarios are added to the K44 scenario list. :)

Strela · 06-16-2010, 01:35 AM,

Consider me doing absolutely nothing (at this time)!!! :)

Indragnir · 06-16-2010, 05:24 AM,

(06-16-2010, 01:35 AM)Strela Wrote: Consider me doing absolutely nothing (at this time)!!! :)

David,

Are you getting my PM?

Bests
César

cavalry corps · 06-16-2010, 07:41 AM,

Strela and VM

• The parameter file (PDT) has had range attenuation adjusted with no reduction for direct fire over 1 hex. This helps German AA, AT & Panzers attain kills at a distance but keep in mind visibility and terrain will ensure that this benefit is rarely available. Small units such as Marders suddenly become useful.

Commenst on this point

I just want you to know this is an excellent idea and I have had it in my Minsk game and EA42 game since outset. Most of my oob uses the alt values and my scn are based on the alt versions- thanks VM.

Now I am not saying that 2 or 3 hex these weapons are the same penetration but a unit is considered deployed over an absrtract area hence ZOC .You can model the superior range only by the method you and I have used. The 1/2 or 1/3 was never working well. It was a waste of time

In both my games I have found that the opportunities for 2 or 3 hex fire come up a bit more than you may think and it really makes the Russians think ( though they have some ranged guns as well ) . AT guns work much better now when deployed where they can use their range .

But now the 88 and other high velocity guns are now respected for their range , that is why the Tiger was good as it was, it was the tactic of using the guns range and its good optics that made it deadly not its armour , which after all was not that great ( side and rear ) .

In my current game ( Turn about 30 in M44 ) 501 Tigers ( in my game it starts depleated but can recover currently on about 30 Tigers ) have destroyed 36 Russian tanks for the loss of 4 ( some of those Russians were ambushed first and surrounded so its a bit distorted ) but I reckon 1/3 of those have been at two hex range and about 5 at three hex. I think I have had two turns of getting to fire at 3 hex and one of those was defensive fire by accident, three fires = 3 T34 !

To balance things up , I reduced the HA range of all enclosed guns with poorer observation abilities ( Stug, SU ) to 1 hex, regardless of gun. These types were used for defence or for ambushes. Turreted tanks should always have superior abilities or they would not have been built and all Panzer units would be full of Stugs. But I left all open toppped semi soft Nashorns etc as they were . These units were vulnerable yes but they never intended to find themselves in range , they engaged from as far away as possible .

Does this sound right?
Looking forward to time to play your V4

Cheers
CC

Strela · 06-16-2010, 05:50 PM,

Hi CC,

The decision to go to no range attenuation was mine. Generally it has not been recommended by HPS for any games other than Desert ones.

My experience though is similar to yours. The small German formations are now useful and really provide some differentiation for the Axis player.

One side benefit of this change is that T34's have soft range of 2 and this allows them to stand off a little more from infantry and better help Soviet infantry attacks.

As far as range reductions for STuG's etc, I did not do that. There is a lot of documentation supporting their anti tank prowess and this would not be possible without the extended range.

David

cavalry corps · 06-16-2010, 06:34 PM,

(06-16-2010, 05:50 PM)Strela Wrote: Hi CC,

The decision to go to no range attenuation was mine. Generally it has not been recommended by HPS for any games other than Desert ones.

My experience though is similar to yours. The small German formations are now useful and really provide some differentiation for the Axis player.

One side benefit of this change is that T34's have soft range of 2 and this allows them to stand off a little more from infantry and better help Soviet infantry attacks.

As far as range reductions for STuG's etc, I did not do that. There is a lot of documentation supporting their anti tank prowess and this would not be possible without the extended range.

David

David,

Quite agree with your comments but the Stugs were for defence as I see it and giving them the two hex range ( which that gun more than had I agree ) would lead them to be used more on the offence - anyway there is a grey line between and I hope the game now plays better . When players try it they should like it .

Michael

Dog Soldier · 06-18-2010, 04:18 AM,

Just a question I have from reading this issue of range attenuation. It seems to make sense in the desert where there were few obstacles to LOS. A case can be made for a winter landscape in K44.

I am curious how it works in a summer battle over the congested terrain of M44. Seeing a group of enemy tanks moving in and out of LOS, (and do not assume they moved in a straight line always) should be reason enough for the loss of firepower for two and three hex ranges.
Great optics are of little use if the enemy is not in sight long enough to get a good shot at him. Not really worth revealing the defensive position.

Dog Soldier

cavalry corps · 06-18-2010, 06:52 AM,

(06-18-2010, 04:18 AM)Dog Soldier Wrote: Just a question I have from reading this issue of range attenuation. It seems to make sense in the desert where there were few obstacles to LOS. A case can be made for a winter landscape in K44.

I am curious how it works in a summer battle over the congested terrain of M44. Seeing a group of enemy tanks moving in and out of LOS, (and do not assume they moved in a straight line always) should be reason enough for the loss of firepower for two and three hex ranges.
Great optics are of little use if the enemy is not in sight long enough to get a good shot at him. Not really worth revealing the defensive position.

Dog Soldier

In the congested terrain of M44 two or three hex vis comes up less often. There is no modifier for summer or einter just the vis rule. BUT in all the games 2 or 3 hex vis is just that whether its in the desert or anywhere else. In PZC there is no concealment lost when you fire , you will be seen whatever the next turn. ( except the fisrt defensive fire ) .

Tigers are looking for range shots because that is how they can win , not letting the Russians get close . I agree Stugs and others more used to defence are looking at ambush that is why I made them 1 range.

Cav

Dog Soldier · 06-18-2010, 09:19 AM,

(06-18-2010, 06:52 AM)cavalry corps Wrote: In PZC there is no concealment lost when you fire , you will be seen whatever the next turn. ( except the fisrt defensive fire ) .
Cav

Not if the ranged unit is placed behind the MDL and out of LOS form any possible enemy position to prevent a breakthrough. Then the unit is revealed when enemy breakthrough units move forward into the defender's range and the AI takes pot shots. This is more a problem of the AI fire routine on defense with ranged units than anything else. The AI just does not know what to do about ranged units since it was written for most units to have a one hex range.

Dog Soldier