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Independence Day
07-06-2012, 11:36 AM,
#11
RE: Independence Day
Let's not go back to the founding principles, some of them were ugly. This country has been in a state of change since the beginning and will continue. Let us strive to make this country great without exploiting others. Don't love it or leave it, stay and help fix it.
07-06-2012, 07:36 PM,
#12
RE: Independence Day
Thus the rub J2D.
There is not one "ugly" idea in our founding principles.
The founding documents and principles are the best in the world. Always were and always will be.
Over a hundred years of "progressive" development and re-writing the Constitution is what is ruining this country. We need to get back to being more "America" and less "European". (And, that is not a slight on Europe. It's just that Europe had it's chance and most countries ended up with some form of socialist ideals that lead to Communism or Fascism compacted into totalitarian state-ism.)

That, along with a willing educational system that does not teach our children.

What would fix the country is to remove the blight/cancer of progressivism. Starting from Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson.

Just a thought or two. Sweep
I like to push back against untruth and progressive ideals ... one breath at a time. Chop Wood

HSL
07-07-2012, 05:07 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-07-2012, 05:13 AM by Kool Kat.)
#13
RE: Independence Day
Gents: Smoke7

Friendly warning. This thread is starting to teeter into subjects that we "discourage" because of our club's international members.

I'll keep it "open" for now, but please be mindful of ROE #8.
Regards, Mike / "A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week." - George S. Patton /
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07-08-2012, 03:18 AM,
#14
RE: Independence Day
I'm sure Ed intends no slight to our European or other friends, who after all are not responsible for their governments, at least before they reached responsible, voting adulthood. The day may come, when our republic is as old as some 'old world' nations, that another, younger polity may criticize our failures. And we'll deserve it.

Of course, I hope not. We've been blessed with success due to the pragmatic vision of our founders, who saw that man is not perfectible and that checks and balances and protections must be built into the system of government to prevent the excesses that we are all prone to. If we manage not to descend into the mob rule of unconstrained 'democracy' - voting ourselves an overinflated public treasury until it's empty - then we'll have succeeded indeed, and will continue to be an example for others to emulate.

A smart, reductionist friend once pointed out that the net flow of people across borders is a way of measuring the success and appeal of a system. So long as it's a net postive, we must be doing something right. North Korea, for an extreme example in the other direction, needs little other analysis than that lots of people want out, and no one wants in.

Americans should be very protective of our Constitution as written and as intended; and non-Americans ought to take inspiration from it, as many have for 200+ years now, and find ways to implement its wisdom within their own cultures and systems.

I'd be happy to see us reflect on the strengths and weaknesses of any of our community of nations, on occasions like our Independence Day that bring their history and natural pride into focus. We're all historians here, to some degree, so IMO as long as it remains civil so that no one can take offense or construe bad intent where none was intended, conversations like this only make us all smarter. It's certainly off-topic, but this is a community that I respect, where I enjoy hearing off-topic opinions from time to time.

I like to hear the perspectives of my countrymen who disagree with me, and especially of non-Americans on America. From de Tocqueville to John Keegan, they keep us honest and reflective, and show us things we cannot see so well about ourselves.

cheers
Bill
07-08-2012, 06:51 AM,
#15
RE: Independence Day
I am not Americanand also prefer to stay away from discussion which dmeocracy is more 'democratic'.

One thing which I feel I can comment is about some countries ending up Communist. As far as my history goes the only country in Europe with self imposed Communism was Soviet Union. The whole rest of former 'communist block' adapted communism in the presence of liberating Red Army with passive stance from western allies. Therefore I feel it is a bit harsh to say those countries willingly chosen this political system. I more agree with fascism where Italy and Germany or Spain ( well the latter one only after a civil war).

PS. I am sure one could find many countries where people take the democracy for granted and do not cheerish what they have?
07-08-2012, 12:13 PM,
#16
RE: Independence Day
I suggest we keep to the subject for which the club exists. There are a squillion sites where one may argue politics until hell freezes over.
I recommend this thread be closed.
07-08-2012, 02:20 PM,
#17
RE: Independence Day
Agreed. Thread closed.

Dave
Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blasts on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us. --Walt Kelly
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