z fire

[seabolt]

I agree that a player shouldn't be shunned for use of a legal option, but human nature attracts us to people who are more like minded.

For example: I prefer not to play against opponents who 'legally' field armies of snipers. Building this preference into my pre-game discussion has kept it from being an issue.

This may not be tennis but battles should still be fought with good sportsmanship. I think we should kill one another with decency. Perhaps that's because I am British:chin:

Certainly, it's nice to play with those who approach the game as you do. But there's a hundred little sub-issues in a game this complex, and we can't get vexed at each and every little one. Z-fire is there, and it's hard to literally define when it is and isn't appropriate, so there's always going to be gray areas of usage. Maybe I don't like how an opponent is pounding the board with it, but I suspect that some of my practices don't always sit well with my opponents. Therefore, I hesitate to throw rocks from my glass porch.

Everyone has their quirks. To me, it's more civilized to put up with them than deem this set of quirks "fair" and that set "foul." But then, I'm a Texan. ;)

I think you totally hit the nail on its proverbial head with the ammo loadout. I think the units probably have historically correct loadouts for the most part. But this is game where battles are a compressed and intense representation.

I'm glad you agree. I imagine that, in your case, you could ask your opponent for a 50/50 rule: Anytime a squad's slot 1 or slot 2 weapon drops below 50 units of ammo, you have to turn that weapon off. That would put the brakes on z-fire, I reckon.

-- 30 --

[retired from gaming]

OK, I understand now.
I went thru the thread once again and I guess I got 3 main issues here :

1) playing agianst "like minded" opponents
One of the reasons I practically stopped playing purchase battles and switched to premade scenarios was i wanted to avoid one month long pre-battle agreements. One player wants to limit snipers, another arty, or ammo suppliers etc. Even when you think you agreed everything e.g. no arty you may end up against hordes of SP-mortars. When you ask WTF ???, the answer is : They do not come from arty type of weapons in buying screen (true story, and I wasnt the one with NO ARTY rule, which means I was deliberatly screwed. I gave up the game and let the bastard have his so desired win).
The problem with like-minded players is they dont have to be as 'like-minded" as we expect. Example : when I want an MBT game with so called "historical" or realistic forces first oppo which comes to my mind is Shortreengage (btw hi Paul, long time no hear). His forces will probably come right out of the manual. However my knowledge about lets say 1984' russsian mech battalion composition is ZERO (NULL) comparing to his'. So I cant give him a fair game. What I can try is to make a reasonable buy, but thats all. So he may be disapointed.
Fortunately over the years in the club you gain a list of opponents you like to loose against (in my case. In my opponents case I might eventually be on the list of players they like to win against :) ).
Anyways, I found the best games were played when we just agreed to play "reasonable" forces - you get the fexibility to surprise your oppo, otoh most players here are adults and wont abuse such agreement.

2) issues number 2 (z-fire) and number 3 (eye of god vision) are not a problem SEPERATLY.
They become a problem when combined. Area fire backed by EOG in my opinion is a problem, and I wont hesitate to say - it's gamey.
I cant see any problem with firing thru smoke, when you EXPECT or SPOTTED someone there. No problem with firing at the building or forrest when you expect enemy there. etc,etc.
Firing 20 hexes when your visibility is 5 hexes - i find this a problem. In reality you dont even know what is there, what kind of terrain etc. You dnt know what is in beetwen.
But there is one thing sure about gamey tactics - we all KNOW when we trying to cheat a little, dont we ?

EDIT : one more thing just came to mind - want to avoid your oppo abuse z-fire ? Play short games, very short. He wont have time for fire as he has to run instead LOL

[GUNSLNGR]

Can a new guy put in a comment here?

I'd have to say that the z-fire is realistic but not realistically accurate. Huh?

What I mean is suppressive fire is and always has been an important tactic in warefare since the first bow and arrow. You don't always, in fact rarely, know what you're shooting at in war. In the "real world" a muzzle flash from a window will result in you putting everything you've got on it. You don't know what it was, you don't know if you got it, but its definately suppressed. That's war. If my enemy chooses to shoot miles beyond where he can see, I'm OK with that, as it usually wastes ammo and gives away his disposition and intent. The downside is that metal flying faster than the speed of sound will kill if it hits something living...again that's war. Ask any combat veteran from WWII on, how many times they saw what they were shooting at vs. how many times they shot in a general direction.

This game we play is very fun and can be pretty realistic, but we have to face the fact that what we see and "know" in the game is different from what you'd see and know in reality. Not that that's wrong or "gamey", just how it is.

My gripe with z-fire is the "spray" issue. I hate it when I have a platoon z-firing at a known emeny position, say 2 to 3 hexes diretly infront of them, to suppress - but nothing hits anywhere near the target hex. Sometimes 3 or 4 hexes 180 degrees off target. Even if I can't see 100 yds in front of me, I know I'm aiming straight ahead - why would my rounds go and land two hexes to my left? This is particularly frustrating if I'm shooting at lanscape feature (building, copse of trees on a hill, etc) that I can see. I could understand my rounds not being anything close to accurate, but why would they land 100 yards left or right of the target hex?

While I'm at yet, I'd also like to express my displeasure with "dong...zing" that seems to drag replays on FOREVER...but I'm still pretty new to all this, so what do I know anway?

GUNSLNGR

[seabolt]

While I'm at yet, I'd also like to express my displeasure with "dong...zing" that seems to drag replays on FOREVER...but I'm still pretty new to all this, so what do I know anway?

I'm hereby officially nominating Dong...Zing! to be added to the Steel Panthers lexicon. Thus let it be written; thus let it be said. ;)

-- 30 --

[Walrus]

Hi
An interesting thread this one.

I agree that the 'ping' of a hit is annoying, it would be great if it could be turned off.
However, it was added by the SPCAMO designers for their own reasons and will likely stay.

The heavy 'spray' is built into the z fire to limit it's over use. When z fire started to be heavily used, there was a large discussion at the SPCAMO test forums and eventually it was made 'less accurate" as a response.
So, in some situations, it has become far too inaccurate.

Just a reminder to GUNSLINGR, and others.
This game is base on antiquated code...maybe 15 years old now.
The SPCAMO guys have been modding this game now for near 10 years, mostly with no pay, and with the help of a small band of ever changing and already busy testers.

If you played the original game this code came from...and then A-B it against the latest versions...you would feel like you were playing a different game entirely!

In the process of adding feature and ironing out bugs, many limits to the potential changes have been found. The code reacts very badly. Sometimes a small change can trigger a large reaction somewhere else in the code.
So, the designers have learned to make small changes and then only after lots of testing.

Anyway....there are lots of issues with is game platform...some of the are a hassle, some are minor. Some are code related, some are in the process of being fixed. Some parameters have change making some players happy, and others not.
This is the way of it.

I prefer, unlike Czerpak, a decent discussion pre-game so that both players are happy with the set up. Because of all the variables, this seems to work best for me in getting a decent game.

I do not wish to make pre-agreement about z fire, for example, as there are many instances where it is a realistic tactic.
What I said earlier, and I'll stick with, is that when I find a player using a game system IMO unrealistically, or even in a gamey manner, I tend to avoid playing that player again. Not 'shunning them" as was suggested.
I have more potential opponents than time on my hands, so it makes sense to me to play guys who are 'on the same page' regarding how to get a FUN game of SP going.

Reiterating my earlier point. Some players are WAY too enamored of this feature. For many reasons I find it unrealistic...EOG accuracy correction well out of LOS for one...the ammo issue is another. So as I find players who rely on MASSES of z fire as their main tactic...I will tend to look for other player to battle against.

If it gets to the stage that I cannot find a battle of SP without having to withstand a tsunami of z fire every turn (or be able to watch a replay without it crashing due to too much data) then I guess my time as a SP player will have come to an end.
Sad but true.

I play to have fun first...and hopefully win in the process.

Most of the problems we as players seem to find 'gamey' or 'unsporting' or whatever tend to put winning before enjoyment.
When I see these issues, I tend to avoid them. It's human nature.
However it's also human nature to have differing views on things, which is why I try to give the benefit of the doubt and don't mind playing email ping pong for a couple of days in order to get the 'rules' for a battle to the liking of both players...no matter how few or many rules there might be.

It is a measure of that, that you will tend to play guys you play against often as many of the 'rules' or preferences are worked out in previous battles.

bla bla...I need a coffee.
These are all good points being made...a healthy thread, and I believe the first time z fire had been this heavily discussed.
I think discussion is a good thing.
Keep it up lads :-)

Cheers all
Walrus

[Vesku]

My gripe with z-fire is the "spray" issue. I hate it when I have a platoon z-firing at a known emeny position, say 2 to 3 hexes diretly infront of them, to suppress - but nothing hits anywhere near the target hex. Sometimes 3 or 4 hexes 180 degrees off target. Even if I can't see 100 yds in front of me, I know I'm aiming straight ahead - why would my rounds go and land two hexes to my left? This is particularly frustrating if I'm shooting at lanscape feature (building, copse of trees on a hill, etc) that I can see. I could understand my rounds not being anything close to accurate, but why would they land 100 yards left or right of the target hex?

While I'm at yet, I'd also like to express my displeasure with "dong...zing" that seems to drag replays on FOREVER...but I'm still pretty new to all this, so what do I know anway?

GUNSLNGR

Very much with you on this, it's a hazard to your own troops to fire from a line at a building 100 yards in front of you??????? I'd like to see the z fire become more accurate but drastically drop it's suppress value. This is one thing that keeps me from liking this version of game.

Don't watch replays any more, I tend to fall a sleep half way through anyway. Have you ever watched two rifle companies fire at tanks? Or 120 arty pieces blast it away?

[Narwan]

GUNSLNGR:

where your troops moving the turn you used the z-fire o short range? If so the game assumes them to be happening more or less at the same time, ie you're firing on the move and that's very inaccurate

[zeiss]

Does the experience of the z-firing unit affect the to-hit chance?


Sorry for the one-liner in this mammoth-post thread.. ;)

[Vesku]

How do you explain tanks missing the same target more often than hitting it? Gunner that misses a building from 100 yards would never have become a gunner in a frontline unit.

[Narwan]

In my experience stationary tanks, (or moving just 1 hex), hit the target hex most of the time when firing short distances at a hex they can see.

Zeiss: good question, not sure. I think it does.