March to the Gothic Line Tournament

Fullhouse · 07-26-2006, 09:40 AM,

One thing that balances this well for the defender is time, mud and fog.

Time means the attack must rush.
Mud means the armour can get bottlenecked
Fog means the bottlenecked armour can be ambushed.

~~Colonel Talvela~~ · 07-26-2006, 12:16 PM,

Time - 30+ is only a slight rush on this map, IMO
Mud - the mud will slow but not stop 12 armor pieces. It might stop 1 or 2.
Fog - Armor ambush might work if the US had only 4 or 5 platoons, but not against an entire battalion.

Besides, all of these points address stopping the armor. You need to stop those 10 platoons.

McIvan · 07-26-2006, 12:37 PM,

Well I forgot my own plans and inexplicably sent infantry hastily into an area where I knew full well my opponents Brumbar had to be hiding. That's put a bit of a hole in them ten platoons :) Was going so well up to that point too.

Anyways, I do think the US forces have a bit of an advantage. The Gothic line was about interlocking fields of fire, and the Germans don't have any. One problem of CM vs real life is that you can't spray automatic fire around on fixed lines....if you can't see it, you can't shoot in that direction, whereas in real life they did that all the time. I also usually thought of the various "lines" in Italy as having concrete & steel pillboxes, many quite small, but quite possibly that simply wasn't a feature of this portion of the line.

On the setups, I agree with Col Talvela....they make it very difficult to place mines correctly in particular....they should be ahead of your positions and covered by fire, but that wasn't really possible. I also agree that having no LOS to open ground beyond the centre-left woods made things very difficult since you can't effectively defend against enemy infantry before they get into cover. It tended to force the defending germans right to the back of the woods...not that this was too bad a place to have them, but it could have been better.....you want some breathing space before any retreat flushes you right out the back!

Fullhouse · 07-26-2006, 07:37 PM,

Colonel Talvela Wrote:Time - 30+ is only a slight rush on this map, IMO
Mud - the mud will slow but not stop 12 armor pieces. It might stop 1 or 2.
Fog - Armor ambush might work if the US had only 4 or 5 platoons, but not against an entire battalion.

Besides, all of these points address stopping the armor. You need to stop those 10 platoons.

If you kill enough armour but lose all the flags you may still come away with a victory, and the german player has 6 platoons. none of which have to cross open fields to reach cover. I hurt one platoon badly by basicaly turning one of th VPs into mined barbed wired trpd death trap. It is more than possible for the Axis player to dsirupt the cohesion of the Allied infantry.

Also the mud is not about stopping the armour it is about confining it.

All that said I do think the advatage is with the Allied player, the scenario is his to lose, but I dont think he can just roll over the Axis player.

~~Colonel Talvela~~ · 07-27-2006, 12:54 AM,

Fullhouse Wrote:All that said I do think the advatage is with the Allied player, the scenario is his to lose, but I dont think he can just roll over the Axis player.

I guess my point is this - when I play out this scenario in my mind I cannot think of a defense that has even a marginal chance. I am not saying somebody else cant make one, but I am pretty sure I cannot. But apparently I am in the minority position concerning this. So I would really like to play a friendly game against somebody who has a defense that he expects could at least get a draw. I think I could learn quite a bit from such a defense (which isnt really my strong suite anyway).

Fullhouse · 07-27-2006, 01:10 AM,

Colonel Talvela Wrote:
Fullhouse Wrote:All that said I do think the advatage is with the Allied player, the scenario is his to lose, but I dont think he can just roll over the Axis player.

I guess my point is this - when I play out this scenario in my mind I cannot think of a defense that has even a marginal chance. I am not saying somebody else cant make one, but I am pretty sure I cannot. But apparently I am in the minority position concerning this. So I would really like to play a friendly game against somebody who has a defense that he expects could at least get a draw. I think I could learn quite a bit from such a defense (which isnt really my strong suite anyway).

Send over a set up.

~~Colonel Talvela~~ · 07-27-2006, 01:20 AM,

will do

07-27-2006, 01:22 AM,

LOL.. if nothing else its stimulating discussion.

Bootie

McIvan · 07-27-2006, 02:33 PM,

These are fairly minor points Bootie, I think its a very good scenario with some real tactical challenges and all kudos to you for designing it :) While I suspect a good player should consistently beat another good player on it, especially in mirrored play where both sides know the setup zones, quite clearly given the results it's a good balance for the average punter....and that is quite an achievement.