How to use AT guns on the offense?

[Liebchen]

Are you envisioning pushing ATGs a kilometer by hand, then?

Since when has every kilometre been a flat bowling green? How about them being driven to dead ground and then man handled into position? Or what about being manhandled into position at night?

If needed I'm sure troops would have pushed them a kilometre - at the moment the drivers must be parking their trucks within a hundred yards and full view of the enemy.

You actually make my point stronger, as I read it. Because the terrain is not "bowling green" flat, and because it might require manhandling the guns, it would appear to be that these guns cannot move out of "T" mode.

The comparison between ATGs and mortars is not, AFAIK, a valid one. Mortars break down for portability. This I know. Does anyone have any data that suggests that ATGs were capable of being broken down?

Even if they had wheels, they still weighed a heckuva lot, and I imagine that they were awkward, to boot.

Just MHO, of course, for all $0.04 that it's worth. :)

(Edited for HTML challenged correction.)

[Dirk Gross]

I think what we are saying is not that AT guns are unloaded and pushed 1 km, but that guns are unloaded under cover and pushed into position. Just because a hex is 1 km doesn't mean that the guns can't be on the edge of a hex, so to speak. Another advantage of this, besides advancing into position under cover, is that AT guns could also be withdrawn from the line under cover too. As it is, they have to go into T mode and face murderous fire before they can move away, if they survive.

Given that, I'm not sure if this is a historical method for using AT guns in WWII. I saw a show on History Channel that included a piece on a lightweight German 75mm AT gun that was designed specifically to be pushed into position by the crew just like we're talking about. I don't know if larger guns like a 75mm Pak 40 could effectively be positioned by hand. Certainly nothing larger could.

[Ricky B]

[Volcano Man]

[Al]

VM - Either one of those variations sound reasonable to me.

Of course the rationale is that in an area with AT guns and infantry the infantry would cover the AT guns while they moved into and out of position. It is also meant to further stress the pairing of infantry and AT guns.

Thanks for saying better what I was trying to get across about the use of AT guns on the offensive.

[Tanky]

Are you envisioning pushing ATGs a kilometer by hand, then?

Since when has every kilometre been a flat bowling green? How about them being driven to dead ground and then man handled into position? Or what about being manhandled into position at night?

If needed I'm sure troops would have pushed them a kilometre - at the moment the drivers must be parking their trucks within a hundred yards and full view of the enemy.

You actually make my point stronger, as I read it. Because the terrain is not "bowling green" flat, and because it might require manhandling the guns, it would appear to be that these guns cannot move out of "T" mode.

The comparison between ATGs and mortars is not, AFAIK, a valid one. Mortars break down for portability. This I know. Does anyone have any data that suggests that ATGs were capable of being broken down?

Even if they had wheels, they still weighed a heckuva lot, and I imagine that they were awkward, to boot.

Just MHO, of course, for all $0.04 that it's worth. :)

(Edited for HTML challenged correction.)

Sorry, but the amount of terrain where the guns would be able to go in 'T' mode would be a lot less than if they were man handled. Try driving a truck through a wood.

ATG's were able to be manhandled...although guns heavier than the Pak 40 wouldn't be pushed for miles. I don't know if you've ever seen or lifted a Pak36 or Pak50 but they are not that big or heavy especially for a 5-6 man crew of young, fit men.

As someone else mentioned the hexes are 1 km...what if the ATG's are situated in the middle of the hex? Why can't they be driven up unloaded and unhitched without being shot up, especially at night?

Being able to move 1 hex is far more realistic than the present situation.

[sergio]

IMO the 1km movement is an abstraction of something like a 'tactical deployment'... anyway I would make it very hard to deploy the AT manhanded

that is:
turn 1. move in T mode and deploy.
turn 2. move the AT ONLY 1 hex (the AT needs all the movement point for that 1-hex movement, no matter the AT type, terrain, etc), and it can be a defensive fire objective (but deployed, not in T mode).

I understand that T mode is a column movement on the road, and that 1-hex-AT-movement could be seen like a tactical deployment, a carefull tactical deployment, so it could be a good improvement IMO.

[Dog Soldier]

The best use of AT guns on offense is protecting the flanks. This does not require one to get adjacent to the enemy to deploy the guns.

In the case of bunker busting with the one hex range AT guns, use artillery if possible to disrupt the defenders. Artillery is now more effective at disruption on hard targets.

If you have to move up against a prepared enemy, "dance" another unit to draw fire from the defenders first. Yeah, I know dancing is considered gamey. This is a case where it makes some sense since the dancer is trying to draw attention away from the AT guns as they deploy. Remember, even though we move our units sequentially, we can imagine they are in reality moving in real time and space. Drawing fire and "soak off" attacks were always allowed in board games to simulate realistic tactics. No gamer of tactical games calls sending out scouts to draw the fire of a sniper gamey. In fact that was what replacements were for, but I am getting morbid now.

You can also try moving your AT guns up in a stack of infantry. Presented with multiple targets the AI might just shoot at the infantry instead. If the defenders are pre-1943 Russians or 1940 French, they will always politely disrupt before returning fire on any moving German units. <sigh>

Dog Soldier

[Liebchen]

Dog Soldier has hereby successfully concluded this thread, IMHO.

[sergio]