How to use AT guns on the offense?

FLG · 03-16-2007, 06:13 PM,

D-Day_Dodger · 03-16-2007, 07:58 PM,

The amount of feedback to my question has been really overwhelming. Thanks for the input, guys.

I do like the idea of AT guns being able to move 1 hex maximum after going out of T mode as this would give them greater tactical flexibility. Unfortunately, not being in the infantry in WWII (or even a gleam in my parent's eyes at that point) I can't say whether this rule change would be realistic or not.

It sure would be sweet if there were some actual vets whose comments could be solicited on this site. Maybe HPS could distribute some free copies of their PZC games to American Legions, Royal Canadian Legions, etc and see what the guys who were actually there think about them and what changes they would recommend (put this suggestion under the column of wishful thinking as it's not very practical and would have a very adverse effect of HPS' bottom line).

Occam · (This post was last modified: 03-16-2007, 11:29 PM by Occam.)

As allied in say normandy full
I just drive my at up and enter hex with other units.
sometimes at gets pounded.

Pull at back after hex captured and it gets rebuilt.
Yeh its not totally realistic [manhandled at could do better]
But its a side issue in such a huge battle. [normandy]
Im playing it now, turn 34. AT always suffers heavy, in T mode its
extra recon.
I have at outside St Lo .It is doing great on the offense
It got there 1st.and thats a real winner.

Musashi

sergio · 03-17-2007, 03:57 AM,

typhoon · 03-17-2007, 04:14 AM,

I have no answer to the question but will offer an opinion on AT guns in PZ camps.Not being any kind of military expert I do not know how unrealistic my suggestion might be. Indeed it may have been offered before but I believe that an AT gun should be allowed to enter a hex next to an enemy unit with the AT gun in T mode and if that hex is occupied by friendly infantry then the enemies defensive fire should be forced to fire at the infantry. Again when the AT gun deploys the defensive fire should be at the infantry who are sort of screening the AT gun. This might be open to a few gamey tricks I'm not sure but I think it would help with the use of AT guns in this game which apart from bunker busting and blocking seem to have not much other value espesially when trying to use them on the offensive.

Engelbrekt · (This post was last modified: 03-17-2007, 05:03 AM by Engelbrekt.)

Either way is good IMO, a 1 hex movement or opportunity fire being directed to the infantry instead of the t-mode guns.. Same effect almost, except that the 1 hex movement would allow the guns to better survive an assault with retreat result. They are after all a defensive weapon.

I think the bigger picture here is to enhance the anti-tank guns performance and role in the series, not "could an at-gun be manhandled 1 km?". (To which the answer is yes and no, a 37mm weighing 450 kg: sure. A 75mm at 1500 kg: maybe. An 88mm at 5000 kg: no)

Rev Rico · 03-17-2007, 05:36 AM,

I think this debate arises because PzC tries waflles between being an Operational level wargame and a Tactical level wargame. When it tries to be both ambiquity and confusion arise regarding the rules, game tactics, and the OOBs. This ATG discussion is one example. A previous thread about combined arms is another example. Another was about what units/weapons to include in an OOB is another. And the notorious flame discussion about gamey tactics probably is another. Some want more detail, some want less. Tactical, Operational. Etc... (If I make no sense, just delete :))

As for my use of ATGs ... I move them adjacent to the enemy in T mode, grimace, close my eyes, and pray for their survival!!!

It would be nice to move them 1 hex deployed.

Hey, here's a question. Why are flak guns considered "vehicles"? I'm not talking about the mounted ones, but the simple 20 & 37mm ones. Aren't they "guns" that need to unlimber to shoot just like ATGs?

Just my brain being bored,
Bob

Hank · 03-17-2007, 05:53 AM,

I've been following this discussion and a good one it is.

I'm like others, when i move an AT unit up next to an enemy in T mode, I just (literally) close my eyes and push it into the hex ... and hope for the best.

And I've come to the conclusion that using them in defense, odds are they'll get overrun and destroyed if the line is starting to fall apart and their fellow foot soldiers are pulling back to leave them on their own. Most of the time if I can't bleed off auto defensive fire with other units and I put the AT unit in T-mode, it gets blasted into oblivion.

A suggestion, if an AT unit does have the capability to move up one hex in normal mode, the fatigue of that unit should get a big hit. ... just thinking aloud, pushing those AT's by hand would appear to really wear out the guys who have to subsequently man the guns. Of course I think (if this does happen) like others have said only the guns capabable of reasonable movement should get this one hex move capability in normal mode.

88's are out of the question ... although, I suppose you could tie a rope to it and get about 150 guys to pull it along. :-)

Volcano Man · 03-17-2007, 06:38 AM,

Sergio, you must be referencing N44 because the stock does indeed require ALT fire resolution in that game. Either way, the _Alt scenarios do tend to give AT guns a little higher defense but survivabilty depends on the gun type. Those lesser 37 and 47mm guns are more vulnerable to the 75 and 88mm guns.

But in reference to N44_Alt, the infantry have a hard attack capability because the creator of the stock OOB gave all infantry HA range of 0. There is nothing wrong with that decision, because it depends on your interpretation of what an assault is, but overall you will notice that in N44_Alt the infantry have a little better hard attack capability as Bazookas, PzFaust and PzSchrecks are factored in like the other games. This means you do not have to rely on all of those one shot small AT gun units as much.

Anyway, not that any of this matters to the discussion, I am just pointing it out in case you did not notice it. ;)

Volcano Man · (This post was last modified: 03-17-2007, 07:00 AM by Volcano Man.)

Disregard my previous post (#24) about a rule change in the works. I spoke out of hand and it does not appear to be something that will happen.

In the mean time, might I suggest saving and loading the game each time you want to move your AT guns back or playing with MDF off (phased play) so that your AT guns never trigger opportunity fire.