complete delirium on budapest 45 '

[ghostrider]

dear Glenn,

sorry if my words are somes times awkward but behind these frank attitude , I respect you a lot and you works. HPS panzercampaigns is ( always) my favorite games and if I lauch somes times a " critical hit " , I have a passion for this games.

Dear jazzman,

yes, the beast, IL 2 the black death , the terror of german panzer, have only a really evaluation just on Moscow 41 ?, in all other campaigns it is a poor little assault plane. why these injustice ?

Dear Volcano,

your appreciation 30/1 - 59/3 have interest.

lot of T34/85 have been destroy by panther at distance between 1500 to 2500 m. it's a fact (optical and great fire power of kw42 L70). but if T34/85 approches by chance around 1.000 - 800 mm the russian tank becomes dangerous. with 17/2 the evaluation is too severe , and you can't really threat the panther. 25 to 30 HK is better.

but pay attention, optical of panther is very sophisticated and frail. the tube of 70 calibers goes high in temperature.

if T34/85 is better in a role of envelloped tanks, by example 5 panther defends againts 20 or 30 T34 , perhaps the panther or anyone else type of tanks would must have penalty in defense ( to simulate attack in flancs) . this rule can exist with the motor of Pzc ??

sorry for my very bad frenchglish

[Brammer]

Ghostrider, I really like reading your posts. Your passion is obvious.

"sorry for my very bad frenchglish" -:)-you might want to try writing in french and then use some kind of translation software. Then cut and paste the entry here. Although, I really do like reading your frenchglish.

[Jazman]

So who's going to do a Panther-T34/85 DeathMatch for us, comparing the two sets of ratings (the Out-of-the-box and values from Minsk)?

I volunteer anyone but me.

[Hadge]

Hi All

Good debate this - however, am I correct in that, for a Panther with a HA of 59/3, it does'nt actually have a strength of 59 when firing at range 3? , and that its strength at range greater than one (as with all direct fire weapon systems) is reduced expotentially? (I am sure I remember reading this somewhere....)

The higher strength at short range then equates to training, radios, turret speed etc; whilst the higher range demonstrates the better optics, barrel length, accuracy, velocity etc of the gun system

n'est pas?

Cheers

Chris

[Volcano Man]

Well, I think you can model the abstracts (and the word I hate) "intagibles" all day, and each time you will come up with a different rating. In the end, this is not a tank vs. tank tactical simulation (see Steel Beasts for that, *shameless plug* :)), it is simply > 0 intergers firing three times per two hours at another entity of > 0 in quantity. So who knows what the heck these units ratings should be.

I think the trick is you pick a standard and a method at detmining one of them and then you create a spectrum around that for consistency. No matter what data you come up with, everyone will not be happy and someone will always come up with another important "intagible" that supposedly proves your figures incorrect. I am all for reviewing unit ratings (and I have corrected a few errors in my own ratings in the past) but there is a point where it is anyones best guess.

[Jazman]

I think the trick is you pick a standard and a method at detmining one of them and then you create a spectrum around that for consistency. No matter what data you come up with, everyone will not be happy and someone will always come up with another important "intagible" that supposedly proves your figures incorrect.

_I'm_ happy.

[Elxaime]

[Richrd]

It's not just shell vs plate. Would most people agree that a German Pz company is tactically superior to a Russian Tk Battalion with similar numbers of tanks? So you'd have the individual superiority of the panther multiplied by the company superiority.

[Dog Soldier]

I think many players miss the real strength of the Russian T-34. Use a large number with their excellent speed (MP) to move up and assault.

Assault German tank companies with 30 or so T-34's. They will do great damage. Maybe not a lot of kills until you "soften up" the German armor. But once fatigued, even the mighty Tigers and Panthers are vulnerable to assault. In such a fight the assault values are nearly equal. The Soviets can not fool around and "feel with the fingers". They must "hit with the fist".

If your playing the Russians and decide the German armor in the scenario is too strong to be rushed. Then use the fast T-34 units (again in masses) to hit a part of the German line held only by soft units. If you first weaken such a defensive position with some artillery and infantry direct fire, the tanks will slaughter the German late war infantry by the boat load. When the Germans have enough cover, forest and villages to make a line of soft units, use your infantry to expel them into the open. Then follow on with a T-34 assault, the more the better. A few tank units and motorized infantry then ride through the breach and fan out to stop a counterattack.

Fighting at range with German tanks is foolish on the eastern front.

Dog Soldier

[Occam]

Dog Soldier

Bit off topic but
"---Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything.---
-- Wyatt Earp"
Is so true.
Eastwood in 'unforgiven' exemplifies it.

Musashi