Pillboxes and bunkers

[K K Rossokolski]

Old chestnut time.... since the annual 1/2 T debate is on again, why not revisit the questions of :

a. which are worse - those found in EFII/WF/RS,

b. can any be defeated within reasonable effort limits, and

c. how?

Personally, I try and find another way, esp if pillboxes are in the way. But often there just AIN'T another route. not enough smokes, etc etc

Cheers
KKR :stir:

[Montana Mud]

I do know that if they are occupied by Italian infantry/MG they pose almost no threat and are overrun with ease.

[K K Rossokolski]

Apart from Montana Mud, no takers. I guess nobody does bunkers these days, let alone pillboxes...............

Or maybe I'm just a boring old fart, and nobody wants to talk to me.


Cheers
KKR

[Von Earlmann]

Bunkers and pillboxs do not really work well in short time frame scenarios. I rarely will use them in short scenarios and almost never in an objective hex.They do have thier place in the larger scenarios and campaigns where the turn limit is not so critical. As to which is easier I think WF is a bit easier than EF....not too familiar with RS etc.

[RedDevil]

toten tanz and I have began to figure them out a bit more each game.

they can be broken quite quickly with the right planning.

of course we all know you need those HIGH assault capable units present and some big guns to start knocking down morale and hopefully disrupting the units in side.

units inside get a morale bonus of 4 plus whatever other morale increasing modifiers are is present, like terrain and leaders.

units inside will NEVER retreat and either take a morale hit or become disrupted, once they are disrupted nothing else short of a Sp loss will happen in repeated attacks.

to try and ensure your assaults survive, you'll need to gamble with a leader. Your assault can fail if all your units attacking become disrupted by the counter assault. A leader can never be disrupted. he can be killed tho!

surrounding the bunker/pillbox seems to make it capitulate quicker, perhaps due to low supply. by waiting a turn or 2 to allow the effects to accumulate, your assault has a better chance of success. Hit it with smoke each turn to keep the enemy from shooting out at full strength.
Target his guns, HQs and mortars 1st as they have weaker defense levels even with the added defense bonus'

Do not be afraid to gamble a stack of men and a leader against undisrupted bunker forces after a few turns of surrounding them, you might be surprised at the results.

if all the units in the bunker/pillbox are disrupted, simply hit it hard before they rally, you should win every time if you have enough power to assault. using a single unit with an assault value of 1 or 2 is NOT advised LOL

use armor to hit bunkers, but not pillboxes

hope this helps some

[Nort]

It is my understanding that HE is better against bunkers, whereas AP is better against pillboxes. Plus, hard target units cannot assault pillboxes, whereas they can assault bunkers.

Unless, of couse, I am completely wrong on this ...

;)

[RedDevil]

we'll let you slide this time Nort, you're right on both accounts :)

[K K Rossokolski]

Finally stirred up some interest!!!!

As I said previously,(I think) 350 odd games gives one a feel for these issues, but I was less clear in specifying what I thought was the core of the problem -those many scens below say size 8 where you never have enough time strength or smoke to take them, nor enough space/time to go around. Earl summed this up nicely - they have little or no place in these scens -except many of those scens presently exist, and because of the bunker/PB issue become of little value for PBEM, which is our main business.

I note the Command Sergeant Major's comments with due respect but find some comforting generalisations in his approach. Presumably the foe, if he has any arty, will NOT refrain from laying a barrage around the target, thus keeping the attackers in a more or less disrupted state. The troops in the bunker will carefully select their targets. There is usually not an unlimited supply of smoke etc.

Of course if the inhabitants are disrupted they can be assaulted often successfully with one weak Platoon. It is gaining the disruption in the first place that is the problem.

On this issue, Legion raised this matter privately with me, inter alia reminding me of the limited visibility inherent in real Bunkers/Pillboxes. And of course the AT gun inside does not have instantaneous training over its 360 deg arc of visibility. Is there any way this could be nodified in the game as it presently exists -high walls perhaps?

Cheers
KKR