Newbie Question

[farcus]

I have a few newbie question that I can't seem to find in the game manual.

1. The local supply value is used if it is present and if it is not present then the global supply value will be used. Am I correct?

2. "when a unit fires during a turn, it becomes a candidate for either running Low On Ammo." - What is the formula or factors that affect this? I know it can't all be just HQ command radius.

3. How are terrain modifiers and morale modifiers used in figuring out how much damage a unit takes? Like what is the exact mathematical formula?

4. Does a unit defending behind a river/stream/water receive a defensive modifier when being attacked by a unit that is on the other side of the water obstacle?

5. I read in the help file, regardless of being in transport mode or not, there is always a 1 turn delay for towed artillery.

6. Can someone give me a detail explaination as to how combat is done? The manual doesn't do too good of a job. Say for example, I have a 500/600 men battalion with a soft attack of 10, that 10 soft attack is multiplied by 50(500/10=50), which will give me an attack value/strength of my 500 men battalion right? Then all the modifers of the units such as fatigue, morale, Infantry Fire Effectiveness, low ammo/low fuel, and terrain will all be calculating by multiplying the battalion's attack strength to give an Overall Attack Strength. And then the defender's modifers will also be calculated and then there must be some crazy mathmatical formula that resolve and figure out how much men is lost on each side right ?

I'm sure I'll be asking more questions :happy:

[Dog Soldier]

Farcus,

The PzC series is an operational game. Better to get a feel for the unit capabilities by playing than spending time with math. Tactics that would make sense in the period of the war covered by a scenario are well represented.

1. Supply depends on the type of optional rule chosen. Global supply values are used when no optional supply rule is chosen. Local supply is valid when using VST.

2. Combination of command radius and supply. See #1.

3. Forget about it. The formula is a trade secret of John Tiller. Experience teaches that accumulated BF causes units to suffer slighter higher losses given equivalent attacks. Being in cover is usually an obvious choice, except for vehicles alone with out infantry support and subject to enemy assault. Naturally the cover then works in favor of the infantry to close with the vehicles.

4. Only a slight benefit for enemy assaults. None for direct or indirect fire.

5. Only for large caliber guns or guns which by design had longer setup and "limber" requirements due to the type of gun mount, Not all guns take a full turn. Terrain matters. A gun in a that would have to cross a stream into a forest or village without a road may not be able to move in the same turn it limbers, even though it will have MP. It will just not have enough.

6. I assume you are referring to direct fire, not indirect fire, air strikes or assaults. Again, more number crunching. Turn off the view option for battle results "on map" to see a dialog box for each attack. There are some clues there to the modifiers and attack strengths, esp . if you teat against the AI with FOW off.

Tactical game issues are abstracted to some degree in PzC. Famous last words, "Your mileage may vary." Setting up a controlled test will not yield the exact same result each time. War is chaos and a bit random. However, experience will teach you expect a certain range of outcomes and what to do with different nationalities and periods of the war.

There is no substitute for training with live bullets. ;)
Start out small.

Dog Soldier

[farcus]

1. What is VST? Are you saying that in my scenario, since I have optional supply rule off, all my supply value for all unit is at 70?

2. The command radius of the unit's HQ and the hex supply value that the unit is in right? Varying on whether I am using optional supply rule or not.

3. So you're saying it is a worse idea to have a tank battalion in the middle of the forest dug in, without infantry around it than say in the middle of a clear field not dug in, but still no infantry around it. I mean it does make sense logically but I can't seem to see how a tank unit in a forest is worse off than in the clear.

4. You're saying that the attacker get a bonus modifier for attacking across a stream/river? What the Hell? That doesn't make any sense in real life.

5. Thanks

6. Can someone else clarfiry a bit more, especially the example I set up a few post up.

So far the only thing I noticed is that broken units are easy to eliminate. Don't ever put HQ to transport mode, don't ever assault in transport mode. Any other tips?

"There is no substitute for training with live bullets. ;)"
Of course! I am playing the Moscow 41' Klin scenario right now :)

Also is there any tips to make my artilleries not always be on set up mode? I even move them out of transport mode and it is still the same. :mad:

Also during nighttime when it is very easy to get acquire fatigue, is it best to not move units that already have relatively high fatigue or does it matter?

[Dog Soldier]

1. VST is Virtual Supply Trucks optional rule.

2. Yes. Both variables are considered.

3. It is best to not have vehicles in any hex that can be assaulted by enemy infantry in good order. While not explicitly spelled out in the rules, experience shows that assaults by infantry into covered terrain will dislodge unsupported armor. The ratio of infantry to vehicles is important and should not be overlooked.

4. Actually there is a hex side benefit for direct fire and assaults to the defender. I was speaking from a defender's POV. It is dependent on the variable in the pdt for each game. Frozen streams mean nothing.

Assaults in transport mode are possible, and quite worth while under the right conditions or in special situations....all assaults are more likely to be successful when the enemy is softened up first.

Hq's can move in "T" mode quite well. Just do not leave them that way at the end of the turn if the enemy can spot them. HQ's are prime targets anytime. With the new disruption rules, even more so.

Artillery, when using the optional set up rule requires one full turn after coming out of transport mode before the game checks for setup against the pdt variable. Ops need to be established, gun mechanisms calibrated, ammunition brought up...etc.

Dog Soldier

[farcus]

Thanks for the clear up Dog Soldier, however, what would you say is the setting/optional rule that most people play by? This VST rule kind of blows in my opinion :/.

Also why is it whenever I try to get my infantry to direct fire on tank it always says exceed max range? Is it because infantry can't directly destory a tank with their M98 rifle and Mg42?

[Dog Soldier]

I think VST is the best trade of real supply issues versus time needed for housekeeping. With out VST weird things happen. Units cross over rivers behind enemy lines by "little rubber boats" and as long as there is a board edge free of enemy ZOC, even leading to the enemy rear, supply is not an issue without VST.

In larger scenarios and games like M41, WW2 organizations had to move along the road network to maintain supply to the forward units. VST simulates the problems with sending a regiment on a wide left hook through the swamps or forests.

Check the hard attack value (HA) of the infantry. My guess is it is something like 6/0. The zero means that the effective range of the AT weapons is inside the unit's own hex. The HA value will not be used to attack tanks unless the Russian tanks assault you or you assault them. I assume you did not turn on the alt assault optional rule. In M41, it is still early in the war. The scale is 1,000 meters per hex. The fighting is not considered to be across the adjacent hex sides, but instead over the area of the two hexes.

Dog Soldier

[Boston33]

I know generalizations are dangerous, but would it be safe to say that units closer to a primary or secondary road will be better supplied than those trekking through marshes with the VST rule on?

[Liebchen]

I know generalizations are dangerous, but would it be safe to say that units closer to a primary or secondary road will be better supplied than those trekking through marshes with the VST rule on?

Absolutely. Generally speaking, of course. :-)

This is what the manual has to say:

The Virtual Supply Truck Optional Rule ... computes a path of minimum movement cost for a motorized unit in Travel Mode between the Supply Sources and the location of friendly forces on the map. This movement cost is then used to compute the drop in supply value between the Supply Source and the friendly force. In particular, given a movement cost of MC, the drop in supply value is 0.02 * MC.

For example, along a primary road where the Motorized movement cost is 3 per hex, the drop in supply value along this road would be computed as 0.06 (= 0.02 * 3) per hex resulting in a drop in value of 1 for approximately every 16 hexes.

For hexes such as Marsh and Swamp where Motorized movement is prohibited, a default movement cost of 50 is used. While enemy units and their unnegated Zones of Control do affect the Virtual Supply Truck minimum path, the presence of friendly forces and their stacking does not affect the movement cost calculation.

[farcus]

where does the .02 come from?

[Liebchen]

where does the .02 come from?

It's the rule, Farcus. I believed you had earlier asked for some actual "formulas"... well, here you have an actual formula. Consider the 0.02 to be the "pi" of "supply," if you will. :)