Nikita Wrote:Russians tanks got beaten not because they used HE instead of AT rounds, but because of the following prime reasons:
1. extremely low training on new tanks
2. huge non-combat losses due to lengthy marches, absence of spare parts for neew tanks
3. poor tank tactics: as far as I recall Russians were taught to use tanks for tactical assaults both in offensive and defensive engagements. Any deviations from that were local initiative, but this was not in their tank tactic manuals. Generally, training has disregarded even experience of the Spanish Civil war, where Russians used tanks extensively and directed almost all tank operations.
4. extremely inbalanced force composition in Russian mechanised corpses, which were low on infantry and artillery and lack of training to operate and fight in mixed battlegroups. This forced them to sacrifice tanks instead of proper artillery preparation. Tanks were not followed by infantry and had to fight their own battles, which almost always ended up in disaster, when they reached artillery positions: 105mm guns were the prime weapon against KVs and T-34s. Actually, same was the case during Arras engaement, when SS Totenkopf and 7th panzer were able to deploy their divisional arty on the heights and open direct LOS fire at advancing British Matildas.
This is for history.
For game do not overestimate early T-34s: German Pz-III would eat them up due to far superior fire rate and thin armor of early T-34 cupola (45mm only). KV -2 shoots only 1 round per minute and cost heaven in point terms. KV-1 is the real monster, but it is also not that cheap and still has sides.;)
1. True.
2. True.
3. False. The Russians only bad tactics came from the fact that their command and control was slow. As were the Polish, French, and British at the time. The Russians had pretty good tactics when they were allowed to use them, and didn't have their formations run to death by their own high command, or dispersed by the Luftwaffe. When the Red Army tank formations were allowed to fight they did so quite admirably.
4. True of all early war combat units, including the German formations. The Soviets were the first to make combat formations with large amounts of infantry AND tanks in them. The Germans learned this from the Red Army, when they trained in Russia in the early 30's. The very fact that the Russians had Mechanized Corps showed that they understood the concept and were willing to use them in that fashion. It was a lack of command and control, with a loss of control of the air, that made their tactics not work as planned. I notice that the Germans had that same problem in Normandy when it was their turn to lose control of the air. Did the Germans then use bad tactics in Normandy as well?
While all of these are factors, so are no radios where the commander of the tank must be outside looking at flag signals, 4 man crews where the commander gets to be the gunner, poor optical ranging equipment, and the Luftwaffe that mainly caused alot of the problems you site for your point #3.
Put all of that aside.
The T-34's and KV's often engaged German armor, and when they did, a lack of AP rounds helped decide the engagement in the Germans favor.
Period.
It doesn't matter what happened when the Red Army tanks didn't engage German armor. It would have mattered greatly, if, when on the occasions they did, they had been loaded with their normal allotment of AP rounds instead of HE rounds, and they had won those engagements. Even winning one of them would have caused great consternation in the German ranks.
The very first tank battle, fought near Rasienai, came very close to being a Soviet victory. Imagine how that would have affected the Russian Campaign!! The very first tank battle a Russian victory!!
A very near victory could quite possibly have been turned into a victory with AP shells don't you think? Of course, we will never know, but I would think it couldn't have hurt he Russians chances.
What of all the myriad of tank battles that followed? What if the Germans had taken a small 5% greater losses in the advance across Russia? As it was they were almost tankless by the time the Red Army counterattacked in December. The Germans had actually suspended tank production at one time, during the early months of Barbarossa, thinking the war was over.
To dismiss such an important factor as no AP rounds, in the world's best tanks of the time, seems a bit short sighted to me. CMBB doesn't do a good job of modeling certain aspects of the 1941 German vs Soviet armor clashes. Don't place all your research on how things went just by what CMBB portrays.
Good Hunting.
MR
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