Combat on the Russian Front

[Mad Russian]

Germans modified many of the captured 76mm guns to use 75mm ammo.

I have heard that the Soviets made a conscious effort to make their weapons that would use enemy ammunition. That's why they were always a mm or two larger than their enemies weapons systems. I have never heard of this regarding the T-34 but it could easily be possible.

From April 1942 through October 1942 the Germans produced the Marder II/III (Sdkfz 139) early versions which had the 76mm Soviet gun. There were 344 of these made with an additional 19 converted in 1943. There were 242 Marder II/III late (SdKfz 138) made with the 75mm gun.

I have never heard that the Germans took captured vehicles and modified the guns on them but in one instance. The Germans really like the KV-1 and there was an attempt to upgun it to a German gun. I have never seen an instance of a T-34 with a 75mm gun in it.

I don't know if German ammo would work in Soviet tank guns or not. Most German ammo was specific to a particular gun. A 75mm shell for a 75L24 for instance would not to my knowledge work in a 75L43 gun. They each had shells that were designed to fire their own rounds.

Someone who knows more about tank guns can probably shed more light on this subject than I can.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Ratzki]

Mad Russian

No, there wasn't alot of combat power in the Axis Minors, which the Soviets learned/recognized very early on. Romania's biggest contribution was to take Odessa. Hungary's biggest claim to fame was to retreat during the summer battles of 1944 without orders often leaving the German troops outflanked with no warning.

I agree that the Hungarians and other minor powers were regularly left out when it came to Germany supplying them with modern weaponry. But I believe they fought with skill and determination enough to warrent more then Reg/Green status. The formations Hungary supplied Germany with in the beginning were not poor nobodies but part of the regular army with some combat experience, maybe not extensive, but some. Not only were they able to pace the Germans across the Russian steppe, but took part in a few joint attacks before reaching the Don, and providing flank protection. They seem to have been provided for at least a little better then were the others as I think they were given some armour, probably well used, but I don't think the others were given much at all. The fact that the Hungarians were provided with any modern weaponry, must speak to the fact that Germany saw them as a somewhat capable force. As the war progressed, replacements were few and far between as Hungary thought it might be a good idea to keep some trained men at the home front, to defend against a Russian invasion. I believe this was the times they folded the tent and headed westward, but still managed to fight on. I think at this time they may be reguarded more as Reg/Green as the Vets were killed and the men recruited were sent in Green.

[Mad Russian]

Mad Russian

No, there wasn't alot of combat power in the Axis Minors, which the Soviets learned/recognized very early on. Romania's biggest contribution was to take Odessa. Hungary's biggest claim to fame was to retreat during the summer battles of 1944 without orders often leaving the German troops outflanked with no warning.

I agree that the Hungarians and other minor powers were regularly left out when it came to Germany supplying them with modern weaponry. But I believe they fought with skill and determination enough to warrent more then Reg/Green status. The formations Hungary supplied Germany with in the beginning were not poor nobodies but part of the regular army with some combat experience, maybe not extensive, but some. Not only were they able to pace the Germans across the Russian steppe, but took part in a few joint attacks before reaching the Don, and providing flank protection. They seem to have been provided for at least a little better then were the others as I think they were given some armour, probably well used, but I don't think the others were given much at all. The fact that the Hungarians were provided with any modern weaponry, must speak to the fact that Germany saw them as a somewhat capable force. As the war progressed, replacements were few and far between as Hungary thought it might be a good idea to keep some trained men at the home front, to defend against a Russian invasion. I believe this was the times they folded the tent and headed westward, but still managed to fight on. I think at this time they may be reguarded more as Reg/Green as the Vets were killed and the men recruited were sent in Green.

I think if the Hungarians were supplied with any modern weaponry it was due more to politics than the Germans thinking they were good fighters. I have some books on the Axis Minors I'll see what they say about early war Hungarian combat efforts.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

[Ratzki]

I won't argue facts that you have ample access to, but would like to ask at what point does a soldier move from Green to Regular to Vet.? I feel that a fully trained soldier, even one that has not seen combat, should be rated Regular, not Green. It seems that some of the Hungarian forces assembled in '41 were not untried but had some combat experience, the ones that did not would have had some time to train so that is why I question the Green rating. Forces without time to fully train are Green as they are still willing participants, and avoid the Conscript rating. I am going by the standard that U.S. forces involved in the opening of the war on Iraq would not be considered a Green force by any means, they are highly trained and motivated and what they lack in experience would be made up for with the training they had at home. Therefore, a Regular rating.

[Mad Russian]

I won't argue facts that you have ample access to, but would like to ask at what point does a soldier move from Green to Regular to Vet.? I feel that a fully trained soldier, even one that has not seen combat, should be rated Regular, not Green. It seems that some of the Hungarian forces assembled in '41 were not untried but had some combat experience, the ones that did not would have had some time to train so that is why I question the Green rating. Forces without time to fully train are Green as they are still willing participants, and avoid the Conscript rating. I am going by the standard that U.S. forces involved in the opening of the war on Iraq would not be considered a Green force by any means, they are highly trained and motivated and what they lack in experience would be made up for with the training they had at home. Therefore, a Regular rating.

All the scenarios I do are based on actual fights. What I normally do is to use the actual results of the battle to determine the experience levels of the units involved. If a unit fought well on a given day it wouldn't matter to me if they had never been in combat before. The comments I made about nationalities is just a starting place, not anything set in stone.

Generally speaking the Hungarians were at best regular troops compared to Germans and more likely would do no better than green German troops.

The main nationality troops are normally the yard stick I use. How did these particular troops respond in relation to average German or Soviet troops? Then comes my situational yardstick. How did they do in this particular battle, on this particular day?

Put the two of those together and you get a pretty good idea of what experience levels to use. All rules are made to be broken though and military small unit experience levels are highly subjective to the scenario designers feelings about the battle in question.

Having said all of that, I find nothing that shows the Hungarians in 1941, were anything other than a green combat force tagging along with the most experienced military force on earth at the time. Their motorized units had bicycle units in them. This is not conducive to what I would consider modern equipment. Their very poor showing at Stalingrad, after they had been in Russia for a year, tells me that the level or their training, leadership and weapons was never up to a par of either the Germans or the Soviets.

That of course is my own opinion. This has nothing to do with the fighting spirit of Hungarian forces as such. They were, as was often the case with the secondary military forces deployed in WWII, poorly lead, equipped and trained. What kind of results do you expect with that kind of a situation?

When making your scenarios you can put the experience levels of units at any grade you like. If you want them veteran then make them veteran. If you want them to be historically accurate it appears that few times in WWII would Hungarian units be rated better than average on their combat record.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Vartuoosi]

About those captured 76mm guns, here is something i found in Achtung Panzer:
"Vehicles of the Marder series were based on proven chassis of obsolete tanks, as well as on those of captured French tanks. They were armed with either German-made Rheinmetall-Borsig 75mm PaK 40 series anti-tank guns, or Soviet 76.2mm F-22 Model 1936 divisional field guns, which were captured in large numbers in the summer of 1941. The German 75mm gun was able to penetrate 116mm of armor at 0 degrees with armor-piercing ammunition at the distance of 1,000 meters. Captured Soviet guns were modified by Rheinmetall-Borsig and rechambered to accept the German 75mm PaK 40 ammunition. They could penetrate 108mm of armor at 0 degrees at a range of 1,000 meters using armor-piercing ammunition."

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/marder.htm

[Mad Russian]

About those captured 76mm guns, here is something i found in Achtung Panzer:
"Vehicles of the Marder series were based on proven chassis of obsolete tanks, as well as on those of captured French tanks. They were armed with either German-made Rheinmetall-Borsig 75mm PaK 40 series anti-tank guns, or Soviet 76.2mm F-22 Model 1936 divisional field guns, which were captured in large numbers in the summer of 1941. The German 75mm gun was able to penetrate 116mm of armor at 0 degrees with armor-piercing ammunition at the distance of 1,000 meters. Captured Soviet guns were modified by Rheinmetall-Borsig and rechambered to accept the German 75mm PaK 40 ammunition. They could penetrate 108mm of armor at 0 degrees at a range of 1,000 meters using armor-piercing ammunition."

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/marder.htm

Interesting.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

I have several time periods on the Eastern Front that interest me. My favorite battle ground is Khar'kov. Four battles for the same city. A multitude of maps!!! OH YEAH!!! :smg:

Then there is the Destruction of Army Group Center. The end of the German Army in WWII.

I like the June 41- November 41 battles because they were far from being as dominated by the German forces as most people think.

The Caucasus is interesting because of the major advances and retreats all within months of each other. The wide variety of units and terrain on both sides.

Kursk and Stalingrad are my least favorites. They are the two best known battles and as such have many other interesting campaigns and operations overlooked.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Stndrtnfhr]

Mad Russian,

When you design scenarios for CMBB, do you give WSS troops a higher fanaticism rating than Heer troops, or do you treat them the same? They were definitely more ideologically motivated and had a higher disdain for their enemy.

Stndrtnfhr Out!