Soviet heavy SP guns

[Skeld (FGM)]

Yes, and no. First the yes, a higher velocity does flatten out trajectory, but you have to factor in the maximum penetration potential range of each gun. If you have a gun designed to be in it's maximum penetration potential range at 300m-1000m, then all targets within that range will be easier to hit due to the low trajectory of the shell at that range, not the velocity, and the sights will be zeroed in at this range. Now for the no, start shooting at longer and longer ranges and the trajectory increases as the penetration potential decreases. Plus, the trajectory curve is not perfect, it is flatter close to the muzzle and has a steep downward curve as the shell passes by the maximum penetration potential range. Also, high velocity usually means lighter round weight, and lighter rounds are influenced more by external factors such as wind ect. A low velocity gun might not have the long range penetration potential that a high velocity gun has, but the same rules apply. It's maximum penetration potential range might be 50m-200m with an AP round. At this range it's trajectory could be as flat as the high velocity gun is at greater range. If the sights are zeroed in at this range, then it too can be very accurate.
I handload as well and as Skeld mentioned back a bit, there is a whole lot more going on here then simple speed equals better hit chances. I think the reason high velocity guns hit more often is they can kill effectively farther away, so get better optical sights.

Okay then...moving over to something I know a bit more about....my grandfather was a gunsmith. He used a 30-06 to hunt with. Which in his day was pretty standard. The gun I prefer is the 270 Wincester.

To compare the 30-06 which had a larger bullet to the 270 Winchester which had the smaller bullet is close to what we have here in the larger scale I think. It's about all the balistics I know.

Same scope. Different rifle. Different results.

I think the Germans used the same optics on their tanks but I"ll have to check that since they could easily have had different optics for each and every tank.

But here's what I know. The 30-06 round doesn't drop coming out of the gun barrel but rises. The 270 round doesn't rise as much and is faster.

In a purely velocity discussion. Not taking into account anything else.

The faster the round the more accurate at longer distances. The penetrating factors of the round increase with speed. The faster it's going the more energy it is carrying when it hits compared to a slower round. Not talking HEAP here but just Solid Shot AP.

The less rise you have out of the end of the barrel, the straighter the trajectory, the more accuracy you have at longer ranges. With my rifle comparison what does that mean?

Both rifles sighted in at 150 yards. The 270 with the lighter bullet and faster velocity hits a mark at 300 yards at say 1 inch below the aiming mark. The 30-06 hits it an 1 1/2 to 2 inches below. At 400 yards the 270 hits the mark 2 inches below the aiming point and the 30-06 as much as 3 or 4 inches below. This can be the difference in killing an animal or wounding one.

The same holds true of larger weapons to my knowledge. All things equal higher velocity is more forgiving of the aiming point. You can shoot farther with less adjustments made to the original aiming point.

Good Hunting.

MR

Most of what MR writes is correct but to eliminate any confusion I must point out that no bullet rises when it exits a barrel. The trajectory of a projectile is in a constant state of drop from the moment its velocity begins to fall which is shortly after exiting the barrel.

The rate of drop is what is important here. Higher velocity equals flatter trajectory which makes aiming to a certain yardage (dependent on velocity and weight of projectile) trivial, i.e. put crosshairs on target and shoot w/o elevation adjustment (which is referred to as point-blank range).

Like I said before...getting into a ballistics discussion on a CM board is opening a can of worms and unless you have a vast knowledge of exterior ballistics it is better left alone. This is of course is my ever so humble opinion :)

[Copper]

Agreed.

BIG SOVIET TANKS MAKE BIG BOOM!

BIG BOOM HURTS!

I think that sums it up on a technical level that suits us all rather nicely.

Cheers!

Leto

[Skeld (FGM)]

Knowing that there would be some confusion as to a bullet "rising" when exiting a barrel I stole this image from the intardnet to help explain what I mean.



Yes the bullet is gaining "altitude". But in relation to the boreline the bullet is dropping.

[Copper]

you could of used a rainbow to describe the 45.70 black powder LOL....

[MGK(FGM)]

Why nobody mentioned the best Russian tank killer su100 ?

[Walkure]

Why nobody mentioned the best Russian tank killer su100 ?

to few of them, BTW the Tiger I had Flak optics mounted and i believe if memory serve me the Rhino.


Walkure

[bluehand]

the bullet rises because you have to angle up to shoot that far. If you fire straight and level your range and accuracy is much less thanks to gravity.


Are the big gun SPs you are talking about getting burst into flame kills or other type ones? It seems reasonable that even a non-penetrating hit from something like a 152 would have a good chance of disabling the tracks or interfering with the turret rotation, or even simply hitting it so hard the tranny breaks. (non-penetrating momentum will still rock the tank good) all of which might cause crew abandonment but not full tank destruction.

[Ratzki]

[Walkure]

[Mike Abberton]

i've seen stories that the Soviet 122mm tank gun on the IS-2s destroyed tanks as much from the explosive effect as the penetration effect. Something about blowing the turret off the target tank rather than penetrating the turret.