Hulldown

[PoorOldSpike]

[RedDevil]

I agree with what you said about the Hetzer, but with regard to the SU100 I've found that the 75/L70 doesn't have any trouble with them...that was what I thought of when you mentioned 75 long, but I guess now that you were thinking of 75/L48....

I was talking about the L70 Versions at 1000+ meters but failed to imply the distance :) most tank combats in CM are taking place @ 500 meters and less which is pretty much deadly to any tank except the KT and the IS3.

The 100mm Gun was capable of taking out any German Tank frontally except for the KT and the JagdPanther/JagdTigers at 1000 meters and it could dance at that range with any of them.. at least mine did when I had the opportunity to buy them and battle Tigers and Panthers on an open field.

[McIvan]

Only time I've had SU100s was a night game...and the Panther's just destroyed them without raising a sweat, the range was obviously no problem for the Panthers and the lack of visibility meant there was no opportunity for the Su100s to sit back at range. So I suspect I haven't had a chance to see them at their best.....

[PoorOldSpike]

This test shows why it's always better to be hulldown even if the turret armour is very thin like on these PzIV's.
The T-34/76 in the background gets a hit chance of 25% on the non-hulldown PzIV on the right, meaning 1 shot in every 4 will hit the panzer, but it gets a hit chance of only 14% against the hulldown panzer on the left, meaning only 1 shot in every 7 will hit, which is an appallingly-low chance.
So while the T-34 is blasting away at the hulldowner and missing most of the time, the hulldowner is firing back with greater accuracy because its hit chance against the T-34 is 30%, meaning about 1 shot in every 3 will hit the T-34.
In other words the hulldown panzers accuracy is more than twice as good as the T-34's, a massive advantage..:)








This pic confirms the panzers get 30% against the T-34

[KG_AirborneBob]

Nort....

Your pic was awsome....

What about the Shoot 'n' Scoot command...anyone use that one??

[Brvj]

Poor Old Spike ,

Nice pic but why is the T34 not hulldown ?
My opinion is that when the PZ IV is facing a enemy whose shell has a fair chance to bounce ,, don't go hull down . In the case for instance of duelling an IS-2 , you want to reduce your chance to get hit because wherever you get hit , you're just dead .

[PoorOldSpike]

Yes, the hulldown routines in CM are mathematically complex, you can try carefully estimating your chances based on thickness of turret, upper hull, front hull, the range, firers crew quality and gun power etc, but I'm too lazy to do all that, so I do what I've always done since I began playing CM 6 years ago, namely I always go hulldown no matter what type of tank I've got and no matter what type of tank is shooting at me.
And in about 600 ladder games I got to the top of the Rugged Defense, Appui-Feu and WPC ladders so it seems to work for me.. ;)

PANTHER MOVING TO HULLDOWN

[Brvj]

I'm not saying you are not an excellent player but since you brought the pic and the numbers , I wanted to point out that the accuracy difference showed is solely because the T-34 is not hulldown .
The pic also shows that the T-34's shell might bounce at that range .
Maybe you could have topped 4 ladders ! Who knows ?

[PoorOldSpike]

The T-34's not important, I was testing the panzers hulldown. We already know that if the T-34 was hulldown it would be harder to hit.
As for me topping ladders, yeah I might decide to top another somewhere sometime if I've got nothing else planned for a few weeks, but mostly nowadays I get fun teaching other people to climb ladders, but they'll never do that if they argue with my tactical advice.. ;)
That's why I say to arguers - talk to my medals cos my ears ain't listening... :)

[Brvj]

You have probably a lot to teach me as far as tank tactics go but what is the "massive advantage " of the pic above if the T-34 is hulldown which is probably the case since you advocate for "always go hulldown" ?
Thanks .