Night Time is the right time for sleep? Are you kidding??

[Marquo]

I am not familiar with the diurnal cycle of WW2 combat. However, I have read of prolific use of amphetamines by soldiers who would go days on end without sleep. Out of curiosity I Googled, "Amphetamines World War Two" and got plenty of hits. It seems like soldiers of both sides were jacked up on uppers.

1. http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2003/02/57434
The U.S. Military Needs Its Speed Elliot Borin 02.10.03 | 2:00 AM
Recalling the American airborne invasion of Normandy during World War II in his 1962 book Night Drop, Army colonel and combat historian S.L.A. Marshall wrote: "The United States Army is indifferent toward common-sense rules by which the energy of men may be conserved in combat."

2. http://amphetamines.com/amphetam.html
Soldiers on both sides in World War Two consumed millions of amphetamine tablets. This practice sometimes caused states of quasi-psychotic aggression in the combatants.

3. http://www.3dchem.com/molecules.asp?id=400
Amphetamine... was used by the militaries of several nations, especially the air forces, to fight fatigue and increase alertness among servicemen. The German military was notorious for their use of methamphetamine (a derivative) in World War Two.

4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine
The German military was notorious for their use of methamphetamine in World War Two. The German pharmaceutical Pervitin is an oral pill of 3mg which was made available in 1938, but by mid-1941 it became a controlled substance, reportedly because of the amount of time needed for a soldier to rest and recover after use. Military doctors were then given guidelines on how they should issue it.

5. http://www.newsregister.com/news/story.c..._no=195646
World War II - Amphetamine tablets used by soldiers and pilots to increase alertness and aggression. Armed Forces dispense 200 million tablets to U.S. military personnel.

6. http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:7cB...ar+two&[/size]hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=18&gl=us

The campaign was short, and very bloody. Erwin received the Iron Cross (EK II) for bravery in the Battle of Tomascow. Soldiers were pushed to the limit, and a new amphetamine drug called ‘Pervitin’ was distributed. Dad told me:

“Our troops weren’t fully mechanized yet, and fought to the point of physical exhaustion. "

Marquo :)[/size]

[Dog Soldier]

I think the fatigue for resting and moving at night with the optional rule for Night fatigue are accurate as is. True, some players push too hard. Al has the right idea. Not everyone in your army needs to fight at night. If you are clever, your opponent will not gain anything for pushing hard at night.

There are things you can do to nullify the attacker trying to wear out your defending force by continuing to fight during the night.

I prefer the PzC system because there are trade offs to each command decision. Some are less obvious than others. The player can make choices, and whether or not they understand the risks makes no difference. The game has layers.

Dog Soldier

[Dog Soldier]

Marquo,

There goes my faith that the war was fought by coffee drinkers!


Dog Soldier

[FM WarB]

There goes my faith that the war was fought by coffee drinkers!

On Russian Front in winter, uppers would be better way to stay awake at night than coffee. Bulge, too.

[Marquo]

I have been reading about the time that various large WW2 offensives began, and very early morning ~ 3am is not too uncommon. Also remember that fatigue in PzC terms is not physical fatigue, rather Combat Fatigue, the physical and mental wearing down of men and vehicles.

Definition from the manual:

"Combat Fatigue refers to a much more persistent state that accumulates through combat. Combat Fatigue reduces the fighting ability of the unit until it reaches the point where its will to fight has been lost. As such, Combat Fatigue is not relieved through short periods of rest, but rather takes much longer periods to recover from. "

Logical extrapolation based upon the definition of fatigue in the Users Manual is clear: movement, digging trenches, etc at night should not lead to combat fatigue, which really should only "accumulate through combat (vide supra)."
Expansion of the vehicle breakdown rule would be a nifty way at modeling overall fatigue. I propose that all units have an attrition/breadown modifier so that whenever they move, dig a trench, build a bridge, fight there would accumulation of some fatigue, day or night. This would circumvet the illogical situation where a combat unit moves several kms, assaults an enemy and accumulates absolutely no losses or even fatigue. The only way to avoid attrition is to remain perfectly still, otherwise all movement incurs risk and consequence of vehicle breakdown, broken limbs, etc.

PzC fatigue should occur during the day as well as night.

Marquo :stir:

[Volcano Man]

You have to remember that they gave packs of cigarettes away too. ;) Getting tired? Smoke some cigs and drink some coffee...

The funny thing is, in mechanized warfare soldiers and vehicle crewmen can sleep while the vehicle is moving, day or night. What I learned to do is nap whenever I was sitting in one place -- be it a vehicle that was moving or just stopping for a few minutes. You would be surprised what a few minute "power nap" can do for the batteries. Of course the does not get to sleep but he usually sleeps the most anyway with every stop.

Anyway, night fatigue can be directly controlled by the fatigue recovery value in the PDT file. This value alters the level / rate in which a unit that is not moving recovers its fatigue, but it also alters the severity of fatigue a unit accumulates when moving at night. If you don't like the result then you can raise it. Fatigue recovery is usually set at 10, but you can try 20.

Personally, I always thought that night fatigue / fatigue recovery rate with night fatigue optional rule was fine. Then again, it depends on the person playing. On the offensive, I generally hate to have any unit in red fatigue and will start resting them at that point, if I don't already do that when they are in the yellow. But I have played against others who flatly do not care what the fatigue level of a unit is and would keep attacking until the unit broke. Against a person like this you cannot do anything by throw both sides into a bloody, grinding battle of attrition.

I think that with higher night fatigue then someone will figure out some gamey tactic that it is basically a "no brainer" to move up those heavy armor units at night to spot for the uber artillery barrage which would dish out high quantities of fatigue for the day attack.

[alaric99x]

If you play someone who ignores fatigue, don't they usually lose? I guess I'm too easy on my troops, I start resting them when they go to yellow.

I remember service in the 2AD (2nd Armored Division), which adopted the motto, "Night Fighters." Yeah, you armor guys were sleeping on top of and inside your tanks at all hours of the day and night. The 2AD had doctrine that suggested that units could go for days (and nights) without sleep. We were taught to sleep whenever there was any "down time," for 2 or 3 hours, or even 15 minutes. I don't suppose that 2AD originated this doctrine, they just used it a lot, and spent a lot of time in the field.

[CptCav]

I once stayed awake for 72 hours during an exercise. By that time, I was drinking coffee cup after cup and I HATE coffee. When I started answering questions that weren't asked and having conversations with people who were not present, my CO ordered me to go to my tank and get some sleep.

Regards,
CptCav

[Marquo]

These personal experiences basically prove my point: PzC fatigue (accumulated during combat) should happen day and night; a vehicle has equal chance of mechanical fatigue and breakdown day or night. Again it is a misnomer: fatigue accumulation because of noctural activities such as digging in, bridge buidling, simply moving is not combat fatigue, and therefore by the strict definition in the manual should not cause "fatigue." However we all agree that nonstop activity does lead to fatigue - I think all activities day or night, should lead to some fatigue aka wear and tear; combat should lead to more fatigue.

Marquo :smoke:

[FM WarB]

I was also awake some 3 daze in a row, or so as tank/cav plt leader in Germany. I went armor, so I wouldnt have to march, but did alot of winter jogging in poorly heated turrets.