Normandy 44 Bunkers

[Mike Bowen]

IF and being inept its a big if I can I will attach a snap shot turn 5 having made the Mans suggested changes. I have done my usual German tactic of not firing other than at undisrupted Engineers and firing artillery first. That way the risk of disruption from return fire is low. (not sure it worked but I am not 1 hex in land and stacked to max in 2 hexes. I had good luck BOTH battleships were available to turn 4 never had that before

I think disrupting the US Engineers on Turn 1 is a bit much.

Also no one as far as I know no one has ever said something along the lines of why can ships not fire in defense. Now thats a coding thing I expect but would it be worth increasing the firepower above the database to reflect that they did fire all the time not half the time?

Just a though and in NO WAY am I saying VM work is wrong etc its just a hopefully constructive thought or two

Mike

[Volcano Man]

I appreciate all the discussion, but the disrupted engineers are here to stay. The reason is that *if* they are not disrupted on the first turn then you can get accurate disruptions with naval fire in certain areas and the engineers can then immediately launch solo assaults and get off the beach, since none of their MPs are taken away in the minefield landing. This should not happen so I merely expedite what happens on the first turn in everytime: any competent German player would concentrate all fire on them and get disruptions. In some cases the first turn disruption draws fire away from them now since the other non disrupted units become attractive targets. In my play I have found the first turn engineer disruption to be minimal.

As for naval fire, it draws its supply from half of the global supply value. In this case 60/2=30. I could raise the global supply value 70 but I don't know how much of a difference that will make. But I will never change a unit value to compensate for some other effect, it goes against the reason the _Alt scenarios were created.

As mentioned though I am looking into slightly weakening the Omaha beaches to further balance it out.

[Baelfiin]

I think that within the limits of the game system OMAHA is about as close as one can make it to give historical-ish results most of the time. I also think there is a point to where one can over-engineer something. Is there any perfect way with our game system to represent amphibious assault in general and OMAHA beah in particular? Nope, but I truly believe that the current incarnation is pretty damn good overall. If you are going to get off the beach in good time at OMAHA you absolutely cannot go in weak and unfocused. You are going to need a little bit of luck as well.

OMAHA is just fine.

Scott

[Mike Bowen]

I appreciate the points made above in answer to my 2 suggestions and I think both are fair responses although in my (only 1 test so far) game I never disrupted 1 german infantry unit. Perhaps tweaking the defenses is enough.

I just wanted to make the point about the ships as I do not recall it before and it might have had merit and I like to have an idea to put forward rather than just say something seems wrong.

I forgot to mention that testing just Omaha is slightly different from the full campaign/bigger games as the Rangers enemy will be disrupted where as in my current campaign they had recovered and that can also make a big difference.

I also appriciate that amending the supply level is not perhaps an answer as the impact later will be higher.

I totally agree the current version is damn good.

Mike

[Barbarrossa]

Its great to see the interest on this topic. After 1943 I cannot recall one occaision when the Western Allies were thrown off a beachead by any axis power German of Japanese. Algeria,Sicily,Salerno,Anzio, D Day, Southern France, and all the numerous Pacific Island landings not once did they fail.
It should not be a question of luck to get off Omaha, it should be a very rare circumstance indeed not to get off on the First Day otherwise we are playing a What IF sce.
and this is no bad thing if we want balanced games but dont kid ourselfs that its historical.
These HPS GAMES are the most realistic ones I know off and surely the Historical result of a real event should result in a draw, to get a major victory the victor should do better than the real historical result of a historical sce and vice versa.

Volcano man suggestion of downgrading the pillboxs and bunkers might do the trick because it is only Omaha beachead that is unrealistic historically the rest is a tour de force on his part. :chin:

[Dog Soldier]

I have not seen the situation directly being described. I have a thought about how one can "breakout".
When faced with the Germans holding the fortifications on either side of a two hex penetration, I would like to be lucky enough that there is only one disrupted unit holding the ZOC of the inland hexes.

Such a line can be breached by blasting the inland unit to bits with air and naval fire until it breaks. If this unit all that is stopping an advance with a ZOC, then breaking it removes the ZOC. I would hope the Allies have enough fire power to do that in a turn or two in N44.

Dog Soldier

P.S. That player "Hienz" is a very good player. Not all new comers are green. I am glad he is in our community. A very worthy opponent.

[Hog of War]

Having played most of the two day "Caen" scenario now in the 2nd round of tourny play I have a few suggestions about balance. (1) While I agree with the fixing of the Allies during the 1st night off the beach for the campaign games, unless you change the points in the 2 day games, I'd say the Allies should remain unfixed in the shorter scenarios. It's hard enough as it is the get men in position without two turns of delay (2) While I appreciate the fact that the Germans would have loaded up the bunkers at the beach eventually, I don't believe that the troops stationed at the front in other bunkers, with all the advantages of ranged fire, etc and given the quality of those troops, would have within the 1st turn (hours) of invasion. I just can't see that happening. To immediately unfix all the Axis troops seems a bit over the top to me. Obviously any Axis player is going to load as much into the bunkers from whatever source available, it catching "like wildfire" is the Axis ability to do so in the modified scenarios!

[Volcano Man]

To immediately unfix all the Axis troops seems a bit over the top to me.

I am not sure where you are referring to that axis troops are immediately unfixed? In regards to Sword, some of the German units are on high ground south of the beaches, are these units are in direct LOS with the landings. Once you land then all of these units that have sight with the beach are released. That is something beyond my control, unless you are referring to something else? To my knowledge I haven't changed any release dates or created any triggered releases in this area that is different from the stock settings.

Obviously any Axis player is going to load as much into the bunkers from whatever source available, it catching "like wildfire" is the Axis ability to do so in the modified scenarios!

Yes, I know what you mean. However, whether it is modified or stock, it is generally smart practice to man bunkers and pillboxes to maximum capacity. It can happen in the stock N44 campaign just as much, it is just that the bunkers in the stock are easily overrun in most cases. The only way to counter it is by bypassing the max capacity fortification and isolate it. The issue with doing so in the Omaha sector is that there is a uniform strength across the entire beach, making multi hex breakouts very difficult. The only thing I can say here is that I am adjusting Omaha to make it more balanced and require less luck on the US part. I also want to encourage historical multi hex breakout locations as well so lets wait and see what happens.

As for Gold, Juno Sword sector, I think the fortifications are fine: they are such that it takes a while for the allies to clear them but they aren't to the degree that that British cannot get off the beaches. However, if there are specific suggestions for fortification changes then I will consider it. I did not have a problem in the tourney's Caen sector myself. It is important to keep in mind that the GJS beaches are strong because that is where the primary German resistence *must* take place in the British/Canadian sector. Once the British and Canadians are inland, they can gain ground relatively quickly until the 12th SS Pz Div arrives. If the British and Canadians can get off the beaches too quickly or easily, then Caen is lost right away. It is a fine balance between delaying the British long enough that German resistence can solidify around Caen.

The changes made in the GJS sector are from years of complaining that the Germans cannot historically defend Caen and the areas west of it. Omaha changes are from years of complaints that the US could quickly overrun the defenders and be in the bocage near St Lo on the secord or third day (most people probably remember this, the German player would usually immediately pull back 20 hexes or so to the Bocage south of Omaha). Omaha changes were generally good, but given the nature of hex to hex fortifications they naturally need constant tweaking. I think that with the changes I am making now, Omaha will be as accurate as it can humanly be.

[Peter777]

Once Omaha is sorted out I would be keen to help out with fine tuning the British sector. From the Anvil Tournament I liked how the British sector played out. To me it seemed pretty close to correct over 2 days.

It will be interesting to see how UTAH plays out in the current Airborne Tournament. It is a fun game for both sides if nothing else, but a pool of Tournament results will be a good test.

As for fixing units this my need some fine tuning as well, and it could be an optional scenario like in MG44.


Cheers

Peter777

[Volcano Man]

In my Utah scenario in the tourney we are pretty much historical with it coming down to the wire. Unfortunately tourney results must be taken with a pound of salt because lots of people play differently. Also it must be kept under consideration that Normandy '44 is unlike any of the other PzCs, almost as different as the desert titles. Unless someone has played Normandy '44 extensively then the veteran N44 player will always have an advantage. Case in point was round one where my German opponent in the Utah sector withdew immediately to form a defense (a sound strategy in another PzC title), and because of doing so I gained about 200 points more than I have given up in my round two as Germans. Historically the 91st Luftlande Div and the STURM moved forward as quick as possible and took the fight to the airborne. I guess what I am trying to say is, as the Germans in N44, you have to be very aggressive on the defense and depending on who is playing against whom, you may see wildly different results from game to game.

As for unit release tweaking, unless it is something small and unless it has a big impact on the game then I am going to leave it alone. I can't describe how much time Normandy '44 and the constant revisions has sapped away from me and my ability to work on other things. Since Normandy '44 has been released I am on my 34th revision of the alt pack. I am not saying that there won't be at least another 34 revisions in the future, just that one change in a scenario in Normandy '44 requires the same exact change to 10 or 15 other scenarios and I just want people to be mindful on what they ask for. There comes a point when another brush stroke ruins the painting and where "good enough" is probably as best as anyone can hope for it to be. Unit releases in particular take a long time to change when you are dealing with multiple scenarios given that you cannot simply edit them in the list, you have to delete and then create them all over again (unless text edit them and that is not particularly fun and is prone to error). So the point is, unless there is a simple suggestion for releases and unless that simple change has a huge impact on the campaign then I am going to leave them as is or else I could be making minor tweaks on N44 for the rest of my life and not get anything else done. ;) I just do not want to deal with the "I think unit X should have a 20% release instead of 30%" or "unit Y should be released one turn sooner / later" type of debates and suggestions. However, if you see something grossly incorrect, like a unit that is released a day before it should be, then let me know.