B'45: 509 Schwere Bn at Lake Balton January 1945

[HirooOnoda]

My sources have this tank battalion with 45 tanks at the start of Konrad III, yet the scenario has them with 30.

Just curious about the discrepancy in data.

Thanks,

Hiroo

(sorry about the duplicat thread. I failed to specify this was w/r/t B'45 in the earlier post).

[Glenn Saunders]

My sources have this tank battalion with 45 tanks at the start of Konrad III, yet the scenario has them with 30.

Just curious about the discrepancy in data.

We had another guy with a source that said the unit wasn't present at all. But I had this double checked by Joe W. As for the strength could be TO&E strength vs. effective strength. To preserve historical accuracy and the feel of this period ... we kept maximum strengths down to levels which represented their peak strength during the period represented in the game.

I'm not the guy who did the oob research here so I am afraid I can't tell you the source.

Glenn

[Richrd]

I also have a source that shows 45 tanks in inventory on 1 Jan. No losses until the 18th when seven were lost leaving 38 in inventory. I doubt that there was ever a tiger battalion that had all of its vehicles operational at the same time.

[HirooOnoda]

The evidence that the 509 was present for the offensive is pretty overwhelming. I would be interested where this person places the 509th during this time period if it isn't at the Lake.

Hiroo

[milan]

The number of German tanks in action is always hard to determine.
Tipically Germans will report unit strength with total number of tanks. This include operational tanks and repairable tanks. Repairable tank can mean anything - repairable in few hours or repairable in several months.
Tiger II tanks were unreliable machines so it is most likely that no more than 30 tanks saw action at the same time. It is also possible that 15 tanks were in repair for the whole course of battle.
So we need to find very detailed source about this unit in order to determine real combat strength. I trust designers on this one.

milan

[Rev Rico]

In the book "Drama between Budapest and Vienna" it is said that the 509th was "issued with fourty five (45) "Koenigstiger" (70 tons)-arrived in Veszprem on 15 January 1945" and had 5 left on Jan 19th. In my research for a Spring Awakening March 45 scn the 509 had 35 PzVI (25 operational) on March 1st.

It's become clear to me that nailing down German tank strengths is not an exact science. Their ability to repair tanks off the battlefield was very good; losses and repairs appeared at times to even out over the course of a small battle.

What I'm trying out in my Spring Awakening scn (BTW, if anyone wants to help playtest let me know) is placing panzer units far back in the rear area disrupted and at max fatigue to represent those in repair. In this way the front can be replenished days later with tanks out of repair shops albeit with lower quality ratings, too (since it is late in the war).

Bob