CM Then and Now

[Mad Russian]

IMO, we need to mobilize the CM gamers that have stayed with the game and are still trying to be active. To get the ACTIVE memberships of all the CM sites involved more with each other. Some kind of a master ladder or some such as that.

Where not only individuals can compete on the ladder but sites too. Teams, leagues both in campaigns, battles or operations.

At the moment there isn't a site like that.

TPG/TSDII is non-clan but all the other sites I know of are. Maybe if we put together a site where there could be a ladder archive such as TDSII is for scenarios it would get some more interest and activity going among the CM gaming community.

Last year at this time RD and I discussed some changes to the way Blitz MIGHT do business with CM.

Some things happened since then though. The main one being the Blitz being attacked. Blitz has not been the only site to be hacked either. Most I think have been in one form or another. That I think changed what RD wanted to do. It absolutely changed the dynamics of the coding capabilities of the Blitz for 2007 while the site just struggled to regain where it was before the hack.

Now security considerations are becoming much more prevalent and things aren't going to get changed withtout an idea that there needs to be a change and if that change can be secure.

Alot of what I've been involved with here at the Blitz in the past year has been to see what could or could not be done. What Blitz wanted or didn't. It's not been just Blitz. I've been on other sites as well.

I seem to have an innate ability to raise RD's blood pressure. That never really was the intent and for that I'm sorry. I'm not sorry for asking questions and seeing what can or can't be done on a site.

I for one don't understand why CM is going to sleep. I understand the ebb and flow of new gamers vs old. The fact that real life steps in.

I also understand that ASL is still going strong, that TOAW has a huge active following and chess still sells alot of new games a year.

We need to bring the CM community closer together. That's what RD and I set out to do in 2007. We didn't manage it last year. Maybe we'll get a little closer this year.

Games like chess and ASL are quick. That's an advantage. Maybe we need to start looking at shorter sharper games to add interest. POS seems to do that and has had considerable success with that formula.

CM can do that as well. Nothing that any of the successful games have is lacking in CM and there is so much more in CM than most of the rest.

So, are we a victim of CM's own success? Is there too much to do in CM? I don't think so.

What we need is a community that pulls together. The sites are fine just as they are. Each has it's own flavor. For some reason though they all seem to be going to sleep. Not much activity in the Message Boards. Where there doesn't seem to be much of a slow down is the playing of the game.

If that's the case we need to supply more opportunities for gamers to play.

I would imagine that the Blitz tracks numbers of games played per month and may have records back for a few years to see just how much gaming activity there currently is.

That would be interesting to see. There may be a place to see where all of the reported games on the ladders are at the moment.

A comparison between CM and other games would also be interesting to see. That would tell us if in fact CM is still healthy or if we are losing ground.

To use The Scenario Depot II as an example there are over 800 scenarios put on that site in less than 2 years. Most are new scenarios, a few are old scenarioas that have been updated and fewer still are old scenarios brought forward from the old Scanario Depot.

I think that 400 new scenarios a year on average shows an active and continuing interest in the game. That doesn't count the high number of QB's played each year.

IMO, we need to harness some of our own playing habits to make CM gaming more active.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

An issue that I think needs some new energy is groups.

When CM was at it's heyday there were several groups that were making sceanrios.

B&T
CSDT
WeBoB
KG
HSG

To name but a few.

Those small groups were made up of dedicated CM gamers that helped each other research, design and playtest their own scenarios for the community.

Small groups that mostly had their own websites. I guess of that list only HSG has never had it's own website.

While the small groups were active there seemed to be much more interest in the CM community. Maybe the interest was because of the small groups or maybe the small groups were because of the interest.

I think we need to start forming up into small groups again. Speaking only for HSG I could get my own group as large as I want it. When asked if a designer/researcher/playtester wants to join our group they are always eager to do so.

I see the request for playtesters as a constant.

I see the need for playtesting even greater than that. TPG only has so many active playtesters. A small group of dedicated playtesters will do it in much less time anyway.

A question to ponder is would you join or form a small group if there was a place to take your scenarios? What if a website put together a format to support small groups and gave them a place to call home so to speak?

Not sure that something like that fits here at Blitz but not sure it doesn't either. Then of course there is FGM to consider. Those are only the two that are needing discussed here in these forums as far as clubs/clans go.

Unless you have a desire to see a format more like another club/site has.

What do you think?

Good Hunting.

MR

[Der Kuenstler]

The appeal of a "worldwide" ladder would draw a lot of players. Just being able to say "I'm ranked #17 IN THE WORLD at Combat Mission" - whether it's total games played, total score, etc.

Making an ANNUAL ladder, repeating yearly, with yearly awards, would also appeal to newer players. An "all-time" ladder should still be kept, with all-time official world records and streaks, such as "all-time longest win (or loss) streak", etc.

I would imagine in order to make it the "official" world ladder there would need to be some kind of endorsement by Battlefront. And why wouldn't they, if they saw a chance if increased interest and game sales?

You can see by looking at our ladder that of 401 players, 134 0f them (over 30%) have reported less than 10 games. 248 of them (over 60%) have reported only one game or less in the last three months. There are 60 guys stuck in bootcamp. So there are players out there to be found.

By virtue of it's largest membership the Blitz would be the natural choice to be the site of an official world ladder - but then how do you get the world to agree on scoring systems, posting styles, etc.? Seems like an impossible task.

[kineas]

The problem is I don't see any way which would not require significant investment of time/money. Since CMx1 is left to rot (unlike SPWAW or SPMBT) the situation is not that bright.

A worldwide ladder would be a very good thing, I think an ELO-scoring system like what the FIDE provides would be awesome.

Somehow I don't see the role of new scenarios in reviving CM. There's already much more what I will ever play. I'm more interested in tactics and game tips.

An online journal would be a very good thing, like what the ASL owners did. POS would get a job as a columnist.

But neither of this would bring in new players in numbers or stop the old ones leaving.

The best would be to purchase the source code from BFC (what they won't do, as stated on their forums several times) and start to publish distributions of tweaked releases every 6 months, something similar what the Camo Workshop did with the SPMBT.

[Mad Russian]

I wouldn't want something that would interfere with what the individual sites were doing but instead to enhance what they were doing.

For instance, the ladders here on the Blitz wouldn't change. Whatever ladders the Blitz or any other site started up would be theirs and theirs alone.

What would change is the status of the players if we had a central data base that showed all the CM gamers from all the sites. All that should be needed is a link back to the original site for the gamers personal ladder standings. Win/loss...percentages...all the information that is held in one place at the moment.

Kineas, I wasn't saying that scenarios will bring back interest to CM. I was using the 800+ scenarios made in the past 2 years as an example that CM is still pretty healthy.

I could be wrong about that. I've been wrong before.

As has been discussed pretty extensively by RD, Bootie from these sites and other Admin types from other sites, there could be a definite advantage to bringing more inter site/clan competitions among us all.

I, for one, don't see CM's replacement on the horizon yet. Until I do I see no reason to stop making it the central WWII tactical game out there.

What I think isn't needed is just another CM site/clan. There is plenty of choice for that venue now. What is needed I think is a bond between us all to make what we do have stronger.

Good Hunting.

MR

[RNL Tiger]

I think a worldwide ladder is a great idea and if the main clubs agreed on a ranking formula [like ELO] then that could work really well. Just thinking in terms of a chess analogy, then it would also be good if the main clubs organised a world championship cycle and as discussed lots of other "titles" would also add to the interest like the "British Chess Champion" [who usually ends up being a Scot!!!]

In the corporate world, dedicated user groups can usually get the sponsoring company to help. If some momentum could be developed behind a world ladder/championship then I am sure Battlefront would want to be part of it...

[RNL Tiger]

The problem is I don't see any way which would not require significant investment of time/money. Since CMx1 is left to rot (unlike SPWAW or SPMBT) the situation is not that bright...The best would be to purchase the source code from BFC (what they won't do, as stated on their forums several times)...

Re: source code - most companies are concerned about loss of intellectual property. The open source community is a good example of what can be done for "free"; the question is whether Battlefront would ever release the code to the community for example under the GNU public licence or similar. It is in their interest that they have a vibrant community of players of their games so I think the right approach is to consider how could Battlefront benefit if they released their code for free...

After saying that, I guess that the real issue is what do the CM playing public want? Chess as a game has not changed much for centuries. There will always be wishlists for improvements the real key is what will generate the playing interest. It may be game engine improvements but I think it is the energy and enthusiasm of a core set of people organising things [tournaments, ladders, competitions, novelties...] that will generate ongoing interest.

[Mad Russian]

Re: source code - most companies are concerned about loss of intellectual property. The open source community is a good example of what can be done for "free"; the question is whether Battlefront would ever release the code to the community for example under the GNU public licence or similar. It is in their interest that they have a vibrant community of players of their games so I think the right approach is to consider how could Battlefront benefit if they released their code for free...

After saying that, I guess that the real issue is what do the CM playing public want? Chess as a game has not changed much for centuries. There will always be wishlists for improvements the real key is what will generate the playing interest. It may be game engine improvements but I think it is the energy and enthusiasm of a core set of people organising things [tournaments, ladders, competitions, novelties...] that will generate ongoing interest.

Why would we need the code? There are dozens of ladders out there now that didn't require the code to put together. They don't utilize the code to maintain the ladders.

If we want to promote this thread from the, "CM Then and Now" that we have going to make it a, "CM Then, Now and Tomorrow" thread, I guess I can see us discussing what happens to the code. If anything.

Not sure I get the reasoning why BFC would give the code away.

Not sure I get the reasoning why BFC would kill the CMx1 realm either. The engine I can understand. Everything gets upgraded but CMx2 doesn't target the same gamers that CMx1 does.

The scope and game play are completely different. It would appear to me that a continuation of the CMx1 engine updated of course, would move along a parallel path with what BFC would target as a core group of games.

The new CMx2 RT games at the very low level and the CMx1+ games for the level that CMx1 supported in the first place. I'm absolutely sure that the code needs cleaned up. With only one programmer BFC isn't seemingly in a position to promote more than one major project at a time. Which they have chosen to go to the CMx2 format instead of a CMx1+ format.

I believe there is without doubt room for both. These decisions are not easy ones for a small game company to make I'm sure. To leave the bread and butter behind to go where they have never gone before.

Still, there may be a possible solution for both CMx1+ and CMx2 to go down the road simultaneously. BFC has the code to be able to resurrect CMx1 at any time. If you think about it, cleaning up a code is in some ways easier than writing new code. In some ways it's not. At least you have a starting point and know what the end result will look like. You don't have that when you start from scratch.

You also have an established customer base. Which CMx2 may have thought it had but is showing not to be supported very actively by the CMx1 core group.

No telling where all of this will go.

Good Hunting.

MR

[kineas]

Why would we need the code? There are dozens of ladders out there now that didn't require the code to put together. They don't utilize the code to maintain the ladders.

It was my guess that without new patches/tweaks/new content the course is set, you won't really stop the shrinking of the CM community.

About the CMx1 product line: I spent great deal of time on the BFC forums , but it seemed to me they are totally finished with that. They don't want to sell the old code because of the 'Combat Mission' brand name, that's all. I remember reading 'We don't care if something is buggy in a game we released 4 years ago'. They regard CMx1 obsolete.

Of course these are my conclusions only.

[RNL Tiger]

Why would we need the code? There are dozens of ladders out there now that didn't require the code to put together. They don't utilize the code to maintain the ladders...

You quoted me but I think you misunderstood what I wrote. If you reread it you will note that I am a little skeptical about game engine improvements being the main factor for ongoing interest in CM. Quoted here for your convenience: "...It may be game engine improvements but I think it is the energy and enthusiasm of a core set of people organising things [tournaments, ladders, competitions, novelties...] that will generate ongoing interest."

I believe the phrase is: "we are in violent agreement" :)